Capoeira works

[Flying Crane]

They look good in the dojo, but you'd have to be mental to try this out agaist a thug intent on kicking your head in.

I disagree, I've seem some aikidoists who can definitely take care of business. it works, tho like anything, not everyone can make it work for them. it's not a good fit for everyone.

When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is.

agreed.

Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water.

disagree. This is where you do not understand what capoeira is and has to offer.

If it ain't your thing, that's cool. But there's a BIG BIG difference between "It ain't your thing" and "it's no good and doesn't work".

 

[Twin Fist]

dont make me post it again, PLEASE

 

[ATACX GYM]

When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is. Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water.

I'ts not a handstand it's a cartwheel,but as usual (even when it IS a handstand) you uttterly miss the significance of the movements in capoeira.So cartwheel and rolling attacks like wheel kicks (which are straight from capoeira) don't work,huh? Head kicks and twirly stuff don't work,huh? Okay,this is the final factual word on this.For you and Twin Fist's visual edification,and for the viewing pleasure of all on this site I present cartwheel kicks,rolling attacks and kicks,scissor leg takedowns,spin jump and all manner of twirly stuff kicks,running ricochet attacks kicks takedowns,and more...ALL DONE IN REAL TIME WHILE FIGHTING.And oh my stars and garters this stuff has been getting done FOREVER,factually directly contradicting and invalidating opinions to the contrary regarding its effectiveness.In short...like I and many others have been saying for the longest...the functionality of these techniques are directly link to the functionality of your training and the attributes of the people doing it.And you DON'T have to be superhumans to pull these techniques off,either.

MMA,kickboxing,hardcore MT,karate cartwheel kick KO's

let kyokushin karate show you wheel kicks (no hand cartwheel kicks and spin kicks),spin kicks,axe kick,round house head kicks,sweep kicks,etc. KOs

Here's one of your irish lads doing a cartwheel kick too,while sparring light contact,and other "impossible" stuff like scissor leg takedowns that's been done for centuries.And whoooaaaah these guys aren't all supermen too,soooo REGULAR folks can do this too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-x6npb4Go0&feature=related

So there ya go with some more video evidence that says YES YOU CAN DO THESE KICKS REAL TIME VS SKILLED OPPONENTS NO MATTER THE VENUE.If you don't train it? Fine.If YOU don't believe that capoeira's more surprising techs aren't viable for self-defense? Fine.But to continue to claim that they're not viable is simply utterly untrue. Now it's clear that you don't PREFER them.Okay.That's cool. You state that these flashier techniques aren't feasible.No they're FEASIBLE,they're just not designed to be employed with the kind of back-toback regularity as various other techs.The spinning back fist,for instance,is BRUTALLY EFFECTIVE,but you don't want to make a habit of loading up that punch without sufficient setup in order to maximize the chance of landing it.

In other words?

ATACX GYM MOTTO:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."

 

[Twin Fist]

it is pretty apparent that you think competition is "real"

so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: if they say "self defense" you will once again drag out some **** from a tournament or mma

really looking like your only experience is watching mma and tournaments.

which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Patrick Swaze in Roadhouse

bored now.

 

[ATACX GYM]

it is pretty apparent that you think competition is "real"

so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: if they say "self defense" you will once again drag out some **** from a tournament or mma

really looking like your only experience is watching mma and tournaments.

which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Patrick Swaze in Roadhouse

bored now.

It is pretty apparent that you think that there is a great wealth of readily available to he average person video of real time,real life self-defense "fight for your life" videos showing ANYBODY doing ANY thing.In the absence of that,we're left with the more abundant video clips showing sports combatives applied h2h against people who are better trained,better skilled,better able than you guys who claim S-D are.I'm a S-D proponent myself,but I clearly see that if you can jab a boxer,you can jab a untrained street guy. Try your lovely h2h self-defense techniques on these guys in the video clips that I put up. 9 out of 10 of them will hand you your hat...with your bruised gluteus still inside of it.And you'll be too steeped in denial to acknowledge what just happened.

so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: a mind that's completely unable to correlate techs that can be used in self-defense AND sports combat,and a mind that sadly confuses its opinions for objective reality. which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Eddie Murphy on "Trading Places". When you get hit with one of these techs that you claim to be impossible right after you denigrate posts like mine,you'll "bruise on the inside" too.

http://youtu.be/vOAYURCY2RM

 

[Twin Fist]

you have fun trying that out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'ts not a handstand it's a cartwheel,but as usual (even when it IS a handstand) you uttterly miss the significance of the movements in capoeira.So cartwheel and rolling attacks like wheel kicks (which are straight from capoeira) don't work,huh?

If you are referring to the wheel kick in Kyokushin, please provide some verification that this came from capoeira.

Head kicks and twirly stuff don't work,huh? Okay,this is the final factual word on this.For you and Twin Fist's visual edification,and for the viewing pleasure of all on this site I present cartwheel kicks,rolling attacks and kicks,scissor leg takedowns,spin jump and all manner of twirly stuff kicks,running ricochet attacks kicks takedowns,and more...ALL DONE IN REAL TIME WHILE FIGHTING.And oh my stars and garters this stuff has been getting done FOREVER,factually directly contradicting and invalidating opinions to the contrary regarding its effectiveness.In short...like I and many others have been saying for the longest...the functionality of these techniques are directly link to the functionality of your training and the attributes of the people doing it.And you DON'T have to be superhumans to pull these techniques off,either.

MMA,kickboxing,hardcore MT,karate cartwheel kick KO's

let kyokushin karate show you wheel kicks (no hand cartwheel kicks and spin kicks),spin kicks,axe kick,round house head kicks,sweep kicks,etc. KOs

Here's one of your irish lads doing a cartwheel kick too,while sparring light contact,and other "impossible" stuff like scissor leg takedowns that's been done for centuries.And whoooaaaah these guys aren't all supermen too,soooo REGULAR folks can do this too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-x6npb4Go0&feature=related

So there ya go with some more video evidence that says YES YOU CAN DO THESE KICKS REAL TIME VS SKILLED OPPONENTS NO MATTER THE VENUE.If you don't train it? Fine.If YOU don't believe that capoeira's more surprising techs aren't viable for self-defense? Fine.But to continue to claim that they're not viable is simply utterly untrue. Now it's clear that you don't PREFER them.Okay.That's cool. You state that these flashier techniques aren't feasible.No they're FEASIBLE,they're just not designed to be employed with the kind of back-toback regularity as various other techs.The spinning back fist,for instance,is BRUTALLY EFFECTIVE,but you don't want to make a habit of loading up that punch without sufficient setup in order to maximize the chance of landing it.

In other words?

ATACX GYM MOTTO:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."

Regular folks can learn to do this stuff, but most regular folks don't have the time to train such moves to effectiveness. In fact, most regular folks are out of shape and in many cases, obese.

I am in very good condition, hold dan grades in several arts and I cannot do a cartwheel. So it goes without saying that I cannot do a handstand and it definitely goes without saying that I cannot do a wheel kick or any techniques that are preceded by a cartwheel.

And at almost forty five years of age, learning to do cartwheels is very low on my list. Could I learn? If you were in my class and offered to show me how to do the kick, heck yes, I'd try. But mainly to stretch the limits of what I can do, not because I'd want to use it in self defense. Cant use it in competition either; no bamboo sticks involved.

I'm not going to tell you that nobody can pull off such a move in self defense. But for most people, it would be beyond them, even after training for a few years.

People who can do that stuff effectively tend to be the same people who are good at gymnastics.

However, when you're sixty seven years old, are you really going to cartwheel kick a mugger? Most guys that age that can still do that stuff started when they were way young and train regularly to maintain that ability. Most guys, even those who train regularly, write off stuff like that by the time they're that age.

Competition videos are cool, but keep in mind that most successful competitors are under the age of thirty.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

And that reality has rules, and competitions dont have the bad guys brother standing behind you with a beer bottle in his hand, and that .....oh forget it.


still bored

 

[searcher]

Sorry, but I have not read the last couple of pages closely.

I see we are on cartwheels?(help me if I am off a bit). Can a cartwheel be used in some martial manor? Yes, I have used a variation in a point fighting match(point fighting mind you). Would I try it in knockdown, kickboxing, or on the street? Only if I wanted to get seriously hurt. If I am in a fight(street or FC) and someone cartwheels, they are going to get maimed in short order. This is a fight, not a gymnastics competition. I am sure this stuff is all the rage in the movies and non-contact circles, but those of us that live in the FC/KB/KD world will never use this stuff. Maybe the THEORY sounds valid, but the application of the technique has yet to be validated.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry, but I have not read the last couple of pages closely.

I see we are on cartwheels?(help me if I am off a bit). Can a cartwheel be used in some martial manor? Yes, I have used a variation in a point fighting match(point fighting mind you). Would I try it in knockdown, kickboxing, or on the street? Only if I wanted to get seriously hurt. If I am in a fight(street or FC) and someone cartwheels, they are going to get maimed in short order. This is a fight, not a gymnastics competition. I am sure this stuff is all the rage in the movies and non-contact circles, but those of us that live in the FC/KB/KD world will never use this stuff. Maybe the THEORY sounds valid, but the application of the technique has yet to be validated.

One of the kicks being touted in several of the vids is a cartwheel/handstand/whatever you want to call it kick that involves going upsidedown and kicking your opponent in the face. Capoeira is not the only art that uses kicks like this. The wheel kick from Kyokushin has been mentioned, but that is not a cartwheel. If it is what I think it is, its more like a big, circular axe kick. Not something that I'd use in self defense regardless.

Daniel

 

[searcher]

The wheel kick from Kyokushin has been mentioned, but that is not a cartwheel. If it is what I think it is, its more like a big, circular axe kick. Not something that I'd use in self defense regardless.

Daniel

I am gonna take a stab and guess it is Domawashi Kaiten Geri.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdfLBn4OYCM&feature=related

If it is the one in question, I will shed more light on it.

 

[Twin Fist]

you throw that, you better HOPE it knocks them out, cuz if it doesnt? you gonna die

 

[Flying Crane]

Regular folks can learn to do this stuff, but most regular folks don't have the time to train such moves to effectiveness. In fact, most regular folks are out of shape and in many cases, obese.

I am in very good condition, hold dan grades in several arts and I cannot do a cartwheel. So it goes without saying that I cannot do a handstand and it definitely goes without saying that I cannot do a wheel kick or any techniques that are preceded by a cartwheel.

And at almost forty five years of age, learning to do cartwheels is very low on my list. Could I learn? If you were in my class and offered to show me how to do the kick, heck yes, I'd try. But mainly to stretch the limits of what I can do, not because I'd want to use it in self defense. Cant use it in competition either; no bamboo sticks involved.

I'm not going to tell you that nobody can pull off such a move in self defense. But for most people, it would be beyond them, even after training for a few years.

People who can do that stuff effectively tend to be the same people who are good at gymnastics.

However, when you're sixty seven years old, are you really going to cartwheel kick a mugger? Most guys that age that can still do that stuff started when they were way young and train regularly to maintain that ability. Most guys, even those who train regularly, write off stuff like that by the time they're that age.

Competition videos are cool, but keep in mind that most successful competitors are under the age of thirty.

Daniel

This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone. I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.

I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.

I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.

Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.

It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.

The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance. (that last comment not aimed at you specifically, Daniel).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone. I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.

I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.

I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.

Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.

It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.

The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance.

Regarding the bolded first sentence, not at all. I am refering strictly to acrobatic techniques and their viability in a self defense situation.

I think that I have been very clear about that and have also taken great pains to avoid broadbrushing Capoeira in this thread. Certainly, I agree with your post, but you are responding to a point that I never made.

My feelings about how systems are categorized is one that I have shared with you before and is entirely unrelated to accessiblity or even effectiveness.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Regarding the bolded first sentence, not at all. I am refering strictly to acrobatic techniques and their viability in a self defense situation.

I think that I have been very clear about that and have also taken great pains to avoid broadbrushing Capoeira in this thread.

My feelings about how systems are categorized is one that I have shared with you before and is entirely unrelated to accessiblity or even effectiveness.

Daniel

I think your involvement in this discussion has been reasonable and balanced, and I understand we are coming from different perspectives and experiences so there is bound to be some disagreement.

Overall I agree with your position on acrobatics being a risky strategy for self defense, and it's my belief that they never really were meant to be that in capoeira. Capoeira developed along these lines in more recent times, after the need to fight for one's life became radically diminished. I can see some possible usefulness for some of them. For example, I can see a cartwheel as a useful possibility to recover from a push or trip, where you might otherwise fall. One could roll-fall, or break-fall, or cartwheel and reposition. In that kind of context I can see some possible use. If you've never trained a cartwheel, then that resource doesn't exist for you if you need it. But OK, you can still roll-fall or break-fall.

In a very limited way I can see some of these movements having some plausible use. But to think that you will just openly go into acrobatics as a way of fighting, I agee that it's not good strategy. But I maintain that I do not believe they were every meant to be used that way. It is unfortunate that many (most?) capoeiristas today misunderstand that about their own art.

 

[ATACX GYM]

This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone. I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.

I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.

I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.

Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.

It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.

The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance. (that last comment not aimed at you specifically, Daniel).

I was going to reply more at length,but Flying Crane said most of what I was going to say,so I'll just add in the few things that he didn't say:

Daniel,if you're in good condition and have sufficient flexibility to touch your toes? I'll teach you to cartwheel within 2 days.Oftentimes within 20 minutes.It's a simple thing to do.If you can't touch your toes? I'll have you touching your toes or being very close to it in 7-14 days TOPS.Fact is? If you have the proper performance oriented functional training? This isn't hard to do...for the average person.Someone who's fit will learn it much faster.I've never had an athlete take longer than 20 minutes to learn to cartwheel.I've had athletes who suck at flexibility,so we worked for about 10 days on that.Once the flexibility issue was corrected? Cartwheel done in usually 10-20 minutes of work.

Twin Fist,and all other SD guys who correctly state that sports combatives have rules: I agree with you there.I frequently make that arguement myself.However,what you guys miss is the bare knuckle fact that if you train athletically for self-defense,you have merged the best of both worlds: high performance athleticism superior to most with the range of conditions one faces in SD.Athletic SD practitioners can have and will pull off cartwheel kicks head kicks spin and jump kicks in self-defense scenarios because frankly the people they are facing tend to lack both the athleticism and the arsenal to defend against the SD athlete. I train REGULARLY vs armed multifights.The cartwheel,dive roll escape,and other moves ARE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE THERE TOO.Know why? I and my students are very proficient in its use and the other guys are shocked by such a move...allowing us MORE TIME THAN USUAL to execute whatever else we have in mind.So that guy whose buddy has a bottle,Twin Fist? Yeah,BOTH of them will be shocked,and I can keep on keepin on while they're goin:"wtf did he just..?".And I can cartwheel and dive roll to ESCAPE or change the distance between me and those guys too...whereas they can't.Bottom line? Like any other technique that has a major suprise element to it (like throws sweep head kicks,etc)? IT WORKS WHEN TRAINED AND DONE PROPERLY.People used to disrespect the combat shoulder roll toward and away from cover,too.Remember?

Plus you guys keep changing your arguments.First you say the techs don't work.I say they do.You say SHOW ME.I show you.You claim that the guys I show in the clips doing what you say can't be done are exceptional and can do ANYTHING so they're not good examples.Well,first? If the guys I'm showing in vids are doing the techniques I said? That's PROOF IT CAN BE AND IS BEING DONE.That should change your stance RIGHT THERE. So yes cartwheels,head and spin kicks,sweeps,scissor leg takedowns,etc. can be done and they can be done vs high end combat athletes and in self-defense and it IS being done in self-defense.Your contentions are wrong.Period.Your PREFERENCES are against those techs and that's cool.No prob.I'd even agree wtih you that for the most part? Keep things KISS in SD.With you there.Agree.But your blanket statements have been proven to be false.

2nd point:After proving that what you said can't be done CAN and IS being done,you guys contend that showing vids of sports combatants doing these techs somehow invalidate it for self-defense.No.Depends on how you train the tech.Let me put it another way: Anderson Silva,Kim Do,Raymond Daniels,me and a bunch of other people will head kick some nonathletic guy EVEN EASIER than we would a highly conditioned highly skilled athletic guy in a sports combat environment.Why? The highly athletic,conditioned skilled sports guy is trained against prepped for and expecting the head kicks;plus has the arsenal to be a threat. The regular shmoe with a beer bottle isn't any of those things.So I'll bridge the gap between me and ole regular smhoe,wrap-disarm,clinch,head butt,knee,and if he isn't TKO'd? I'll push him off and right into a full powered head kick.Done it MUCHO times.Did it in the Queen Mary working a special security detail and the place turned into a chair throwing,beer bottle hurling,fist fighting everybody rushing to and fro riot. Only me and 3 other guys on the bottom floor with 250 guests,while the rest of the secutity detail were ensconed on the next two floors up.My ability to roll helped too because we rolled under a number of thrown chairs and we were able to get to our respective posts.I saw a girl getting slapped and a guy getting stomped and I used a combination of movement methods including the ginga to get to each of them and prevent further damage (couldn't catch the girls double teaming the girl in the corner as they ran away,but I did catch the guys stomping the downed man and arrested them both,and my presence prevented both of the parties in duress from suffering further harm) .Did it in Southeast Los Angeles AND S.E. San Diego.Did it in East Side and North LBC AND Compton.I can and will do it anywhere if the situation calls for it cuz it works.Did it on a bus once,and boy was THAT a shocker to everyone (got 2 students from that situation too,lol).They slump snoring.And I learned that tactic from a former Brazilian National Olympic TKD champ named Averroe.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding I actually categorize arts, this is copied from my post on an older thread:
--------------------------------
Archaic military arts:
Kenjutsu
Archery
Historical western swordsmanship
Singlestick
Jujutsu (some ryu and under different names, as the term Jujutsu was not coined until the 1700s and then retroactively applied if memory serves).
Ninjutsu (a case could certainly be made, though I will leave that to a ninjutsu/ninpo practitioner)

Archaic civilian dueling:
Iaido
kendo
historical fencing
Sport fencing

Civilian combat:
Karate (insert ryu)
Hapkido
Keysi
Jeet Kune Do
Wing Chun
Ninjutsu/ninpo (the majority of teachers and students of this art are civilians or are learning in a civilian setting)
Shaolin Kung Fu (yes, those monks were civilians, as are most of those practicing it today)
Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu
Tai Chi

And....

...all of the various civilian self defense systems derived from various martial arts and from law enforcement that focus exclusively on surviving a violent encounter and how to handle yourself so that you don't get attacked (too many to even begin naming them).

Fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness:
Boxing (fight sport)
Capoeira (folk game, fight sport, lifestyle/fitness)
Hadong Gumdo (lifestyle ~ wellness)
Wrestling (fight sport)
WWE Wrestling (martial entertainment)
Kickboxing (fight sport)
Tai Chi (lifestyle-fitness)
Judo (fight sport)
BJJ (fight sport)
Kendo/kumdo (fight sport, lifestyle/wellness)
Taekwondo (fight sport, lifestyle/wellness)
Takkyeon (folk game, fight sport, lifestyle/fitness)
Sport Karate (fight sport)
Fencing (fight sport)
MMA (fight sport)
Aikido (lifestyle-fitness)
-------------------------------------
I'm sure that you can come up with other categories and I'm sure that people will disagree with some of my categorizations.

Just to clarify:
Archaic military arts: used in, or in applicable training for, actual use in pre-modern warfare

Archaic civilian dueling: for one on one duels fought prior to the advent of firearms or in lieu of firearms after that point.

Civilian combat: Developed for general purpose fighting outside of a military context. This includes peasants fighting against samurai or knights.

Fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness: developed and/or adapted from older systems for... well.. fight sport, folk games, martial entertainment, or lifestyle and fitness. Which comprises the vast majority of what you see in martial arts schools in the US. Being in this category does not preclude the art from having SD application.

This is not an exhaustive list by any means, and it is entirely based upon how I view things (i.e. my opinion) and is not carved into stone (meaning that I am open to recatigorizing things based on my learning more about the arts on the list).

For example, Capoeira could potentially be slotted into civilian combat, provided that there is a reasonable chance of finding schools that actually teach it as such. I am not familiar enough with what is seen in Capoeira schools to comment on that. Were it not for being very famiiar with the mix of TKD schools, TKD would be strictly under fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,if you're in good condition and have sufficient flexibility to touch your toes? I'll teach you to cartwheel within 2 days.Oftentimes within 20 minutes.It's a simple thing to do.If you can't touch your toes? I'll have you touching your toes or being very close to it in 7-14 days TOPS.Fact is? If you have the proper performance oriented functional training? This isn't hard to do...for the average person.Someone who's fit will learn it much faster.I've never had an athlete take longer than 20 minutes to learn to cartwheel.I've had athletes who suck at flexibility,so we worked for about 10 days on that.Once the flexibility issue was corrected? Cartwheel done in usually 10-20 minutes of work.

I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post.

Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.

Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they advisable to use in self defense? No.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Regarding I actually categorize arts, this is copied from my post on an older thread:
--------------------------------

For example, Capoeira could potentially be slotted into civilian combat, provided that there is a reasonable chance of finding schools that actually teach it as such. I am not familiar enough with what is seen in Capoeira schools to comment on that. Were it not for being very famiiar with the mix of TKD schools, TKD would be strictly under fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness.

Daniel

I remember this from the other thread. I would say that Capoeira would be civilian combat derived from older Tribal warfare and combat methods. It is different from what most people are familiar with in that it retains aspects of the various African cultures that were blended to become what it is today. It is not strictly a physical method. The music and rythmic aspects are reflections of the African cultures, and these points are common within all aspects of those cultures. I.e., the Africans would sing and use music as a way of making a day of hard work in the fields go easier. This kind of thing is prevalent in everything, and not slotted to a separate "music time". So it makes sense that music and rythm would be found in the practice of their fighting arts as well. Understanding this about African cultures is important in understanding where this fits within capoeira. Nobody set out to create a fighting dance. It is a fighting method, and cultural music is blended as an integral part of the method.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post.

Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.

Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they advisable to use in self defense? No.

Daniel

I'd modify that statement to: "Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they effective in self defense? YES. Are they frequently applied techniques in self defense? NO. Are they advisable to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."