Capoeira works

[ATACX GYM]

Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys

This is exactly what I meant.Or more specifically: a person who practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training.I too practice forms.Literally daily.I open my classes with forms too,while explaining the great importance of practicing forms (which is essentially yoga with Oriental combative movements,plus a library of movements that comprise the techniques in a belt rank,plus a method to preserve culture and history,etc).I've long been a convert to forms practice.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am a forms practitioner, among other things in my training. Would I be mistaken for a "fighter"? It's a silly distinction and is meaningless.

My thoughts exactly!

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Go back to my post in this thread, I believe it is post number 12. Follow my link to another thread here on MT where I explain a lot about this. If you read my comments there, a lot of this should be a bit more clear.

There is a difference between the "game" of capoeira which is what is usually seen in the roda, and actually fighting with capoeira. Most people today train for the roda, and not to actually fight. It's a bit like being a padded up tournament tag/touch player vs. a full contact fighter vs. someone who trains for purely self defense. Not the same thing, but different aspects and avenues that the same art can travel down.

Fighting with capoeira would be like fighting with any other art: straight forward, ugly, spontaneous, short, nasty. There would be no fancy moves, no acrobatics, no elegant flips and body positioning.

What is shown in this video is the roda, the game of capoeira, that got ugly and turned into a fight. I agree that most of what was seen was sloppy and not very effective. This is because as I mentioned, most people train for the game and not for the fight. But nontheless, it was still capoeira. To say that even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight" is a complete misunderstanding of what capoeira is, how it developed, what its history is. I'm not surprised by such comments as most people, even capoeiristas, are largely ignorant and have a very unrealistic understanding of the history of the art.

But what you saw on that video was still capoeira, tho it was sloppy and not skilled and not very effective.

^^^You guys really should pay heed to FC's posts in this regard.He's killin it.I can expand dramatically and specifically,if you wish.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is exactly what I meant.Or more specifically: a person who practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training.

Repeating what I said in my earlier post: Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners" in the way that you are using the term.

They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being one teaching tool of many and a means of defining the characteristics of the art. Forms enable certains aspect of the art to be practiced in a meaningful way outside of class and without a partner.

Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training.

If someone practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training, then they really are not practing a martial art in my opinion.

I too practice forms.Literally daily.I open my classes with forms too,while explaining the great importance of practicing forms (which is essentially yoga with Oriental combative movements,plus a library of movements that comprise the techniques in a belt rank,plus a method to preserve culture and history,etc).I've long been a convert to forms practice.

This is how forms are meant to be taught and practiced.

I appreciate the clarification.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Repeating what I said in my earlier post: Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners" in the way that you are using the term.

They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being one teaching tool of many and a means of defining the characteristics of the art. Forms enable certains aspect of the art to be practiced in a meaningful way outside of class and without a partner.

Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training.

If someone practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training, then they really are not practing a martial art in my opinion.


This is how forms are meant to be taught and practiced.

I appreciate the clarification.

Daniel

I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here,Daniel.That's a terrific post man.But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight.They're not moving slow AT ALL,either.Lol.I do a very very little taichi myself,and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here, Daniel. That's a terrific post man. But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight. They're not moving slow AT ALL, either.Lol. I do a very very little taichi myself, and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.

RE Taichi, just to clarify (for the benefit of any Tai Chi-ists reading this thread), I was not refering to the art itself but to the truncated versions of it that are essentially lifestyle fitness programs and not actually a martial art.

No criticism of such programs, as they generally do not imply that they're teaching you to fight. Most are aimed at people who simply want some exercise and more flexibility. Very popular with the elderly who are unlikely to have medical clearance for hard sparring or combatives.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here,Daniel.That's a terrific post man.But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight.They're not moving slow AT ALL,either.Lol.I do a very very little taichi myself,and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.

You must do alot of fighting. Anyone listening to you would think you were in the bloody A-Team or something!

 

[ATACX GYM]

You must do alot of fighting. Anyone listening to you would think you were in the bloody A-Team or something!

Lolol more like the "H-Team"...and the "H" is for "Hood" as in "neighborhood".Lol. Nah,I don't fight a whole lot anymore.Almost all of my "fighting" is now sparring in the Gym.But my sparring is rigorous and can be really intense at times.Local professional boxers,kickboxers,MMA guys,hardcore kali guys,and others swing through and we get it crackin.15 years ago I ran into some guys from Compton who practice taijutsu and that's how I learned that taichi guys can scrap legitimately too.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I had a MT guy--friend of my friend,Cambodian,profession kickboxer--directly diss my capoeira and flatly state that one kick of his "would end your career". 30 seconds,one head butt and vigativa later he was on the ground holding his bloody bruised and maybe slightly broken nose.Capoeira works,folks.

 

[Twin Fist]

uh


yeah



ok

 

[chinto]

there are people who can make most anything work for them, tools and martial arts styles, I can not say that capoeira does not work, but I can say I would not choose it for myself....by the same token I can not say capoeira will not work or does not work. I have not studied the style and so can only say that I do not think it is economical enough of motion to be something I would choose or suggest.

 

[ATACX GYM]

there are people who can make most anything work for them, tools and martial arts styles, I can not say that capoeira does not work, but I can say I would not choose it for myself....by the same token I can not say capoeira will not work or does not work. I have not studied the style and so can only say that I do not think it is economical enough of motion to be something I would choose or suggest.

Fair assessment there.I suggest that you find a competent CAPOEIRA LUTA mestre in order to look at real,actual FIGHTING capoeira.It's NOT the capoeira internacionale/moderna that you think that capoeira is.Flying Crane has a EXCELLENT link that explains REAL capoeira a page or so back on this thread.Please check it out,read it,and become informed as to the difference.I will put up more true fighting capoeira videos throughout this summer,and I'll make it a point to put up clips of me sparring with capoeira too.

 

[searcher]

15 years ago I ran into some guys from Compton who practice taijutsu and that's how I learned that taichi guys can scrap legitimately too.

Taijutsu is not Tai Chi. Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese. You might want to rethink your post there bub.

 

[searcher]

I had a MT guy--friend of my friend,Cambodian,profession kickboxer--directly diss my capoeira and flatly state that one kick of his "would end your career". 30 seconds,one head butt and vigativa later he was on the ground holding his bloody bruised and maybe slightly broken nose.Capoeira works,folks.

Then I take it that we will be seeing it in Kudo/Daido Juku, Vale Tudo, or MMA events here soon.

I'm gonna go with.......NO!!!!

 

[ATACX GYM]

Taijutsu is not Tai Chi. Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese. You might want to rethink your post there bub.

I understand your post here but I know exactly whereof I speak.The discipline was a hybrid of Chinese Tai Chi and Japanese Jujutsu.Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my meaning.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Then I take it that we will be seeing it in Kudo/Daido Juku, Vale Tudo, or MMA events here soon.

I'm gonna go with.......NO!!!!

You're RIGHT,lol.I like Daido Juku,I am sure I could do quite well in a tourney,but...not especially inclined to do a Kudo/Daido Juku tourney.Will YOU be attending a Kudo/Daido Juku event?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Taijutsu is not Tai Chi. Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese. You might want to rethink your post there bub.

Didn't even catch that when I responded earlier. Good eye!

I trained very briefly at a Jinenkan taijutsu dojo. Very nice experience and I have a great deal of respect for the art. Good stuff!

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

tai chi combined with ju jitsu?


*chuckle*

 

[ATACX GYM]

tai chi combined with ju jitsu?


*chuckle*

Yep.It works purrty well too.

 

[Josh Oakley]

tai chi combined with ju jitsu?


*chuckle*

Alright, guy. The negativity is starting to annoy me. Tell me something: have you studied tai chi? have you studied capoiera? Have you studied jujutsu outside of the kajukenbo curriculum?

Someone could just as flippantly say "karate, judo, jujutsu, tang soo do, kempo, and eskrima combined with kung-fu? *chuckle*"

And it would hold as much reliability.

I'm not disrespecting kajukembo. I the style rocks. And no disrespect to your skills. You've been studying just about as long as I've been alive.

But do you think that just maybe, even in your almost three decades of training, there might be something you haven't seen?