How many people teach the Cane forms, and how do you teach them?
Stick Only?
Blade Applications?
Empty Hand Applications?
Curious
:asian:
Stick Only?
Blade Applications?
Empty Hand Applications?
Curious
:asian:
Cane Forms
- Thread starter Rich Parsons
- Start date
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
all of the above. Reasoning later; I need to catch some sleep before I go in for my second shift of New Years Eve.
modarnis
Purple Belt
We also teach the forms as stick/blade/empty hand applications. While Chad rests up, I will take a stab at this, even though I shoukld be reading this pile of work on my desk:
I like the stick forms for a few reasons. First, they are easy to learn and easy to teach. Second, they help beginners connect stance, movement, and "striking techniques" in a set pattern for a frame of reference. Third, It gives a repetitive solo sequence so people can get comfortable with the weapon being an extension of the hand. Finally, for the intermediate and advanced players, they are a springboard for developing concepts in the art.
For basic performance of the form, they can be taught with strikes, blocks or cuts. I find this is often an eye opener for a beginner to grasp the relationships between attacking and counterattacking along with striking versus cutting. The 'its all the same' notion is illustrated in a very tightly controlled universe, easy for newbies to grasp.
In any of the forms, a variety of stick striking applications can easily be extracted from the basic moves. Form one for example has a series of figure 8's both forward and back. What techniques and extensions come off a figure 8? endless.
The footwork aspect of the forms is another excellent area for exploration. Master J. Richard Roy, Lakan Lima has taught several full seminars on the footwork of stick form 2. The empty hand locking and throwing applications derived from that simple footwork are truly amazing when attention is paid to connecting the upper and lower body simultaneously.
Empty hand or blade techniques from the crossada are evident in these forms. There are a variety of pressure point striking techniques that come off these entries.
Most of us could benefit greatly from detailed breakdowns of any of the movements we are familiar with. Professor once told me "Look at them, they think they know it but they don't really know anything" as we watched people do siniwalli. Much of the connection Professor had came from his depth of understanding basic concepts, not from a huge library of techniques.
These forms are one method for this exploration. Have a safe New Years Eve
Brett
I like the stick forms for a few reasons. First, they are easy to learn and easy to teach. Second, they help beginners connect stance, movement, and "striking techniques" in a set pattern for a frame of reference. Third, It gives a repetitive solo sequence so people can get comfortable with the weapon being an extension of the hand. Finally, for the intermediate and advanced players, they are a springboard for developing concepts in the art.
For basic performance of the form, they can be taught with strikes, blocks or cuts. I find this is often an eye opener for a beginner to grasp the relationships between attacking and counterattacking along with striking versus cutting. The 'its all the same' notion is illustrated in a very tightly controlled universe, easy for newbies to grasp.
In any of the forms, a variety of stick striking applications can easily be extracted from the basic moves. Form one for example has a series of figure 8's both forward and back. What techniques and extensions come off a figure 8? endless.
The footwork aspect of the forms is another excellent area for exploration. Master J. Richard Roy, Lakan Lima has taught several full seminars on the footwork of stick form 2. The empty hand locking and throwing applications derived from that simple footwork are truly amazing when attention is paid to connecting the upper and lower body simultaneously.
Empty hand or blade techniques from the crossada are evident in these forms. There are a variety of pressure point striking techniques that come off these entries.
Most of us could benefit greatly from detailed breakdowns of any of the movements we are familiar with. Professor once told me "Look at them, they think they know it but they don't really know anything" as we watched people do siniwalli. Much of the connection Professor had came from his depth of understanding basic concepts, not from a huge library of techniques.
These forms are one method for this exploration. Have a safe New Years Eve
Brett
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
I went long on empty hand anyos, so I will go short here. The cane anyos are great basic movement sets and a quick way to get a student comfortable moving with a stick (and other weapons). There are some dynamite empty hand apps as well (and a key concept in Modern Arnis is that what you can do with the cane you can do without it!)
These forms, unlike the emoty hand forms, must, in my view, be done fluidly. If there is too much emphasis on keeping a count and freezing a strike all one does in imprint poor body mechanics and develop bad habits. It also tends to lead, especially in anyo isa, to what Marc Denny terms "beating the dwarf." (ie angle 1 and 2 strikes aimed at the heads of imaginary wee folk rather than a similarly sized opponent...)
Chad
These forms, unlike the emoty hand forms, must, in my view, be done fluidly. If there is too much emphasis on keeping a count and freezing a strike all one does in imprint poor body mechanics and develop bad habits. It also tends to lead, especially in anyo isa, to what Marc Denny terms "beating the dwarf." (ie angle 1 and 2 strikes aimed at the heads of imaginary wee folk rather than a similarly sized opponent...)
Chad
Tapps
Green Belt
I like to teach them with a blade.
I don't think people get a sense of blade awareness unless they actually have one in their hand.
I don't think people get a sense of blade awareness unless they actually have one in their hand.
Several years ago during a large group test that the professor presided over, I remember the Professor making a comment after one of the stick forms was completed and many people were done at different times and not all performed the moves the same. He said that this was OK because people were taught the forms differently and would end at different times. I was puzzled by this but figured if it was OK with the Professor who was I to question it. This made me believe that there was no rigid standard for these forms and as long as you were in range they were acceptable.
This was an unusually large group for testing (40 to 50) so maybe things were laxed for time sake.
I believe that Chad was present for this group test, so maybe he will remember something and shed some light on Professor's comment.
SAL
This was an unusually large group for testing (40 to 50) so maybe things were laxed for time sake.
I believe that Chad was present for this group test, so maybe he will remember something and shed some light on Professor's comment.
SAL
All of the above, although I don't emphasize them. I am so-so about #1 and but I do like #2. No real feelings either way about the last ones.
R
Rocky
Guest
Hey Rich,
I teach stick form , Espada y Daga form and knife form, but !!!!!!!!! I teach them movement by movement, to ensure body mechanics. Think of the way GM Buot teaches Subleeg or Tucos, this is how I teach form with a weapon or Espada Y Daga. Body mechanics body mechanics body mechanics if you don have them you will never reach your potential. Remember the guy from the NorthWest that slammed me for speaking my peace about the state of Modern Arnis? Well if you wanna see what not to look like when doing Espada Y Daga checkout his site, my post monday night football snooze in my recliner shows more body mechanics. To many people just walk through the moves and think they are occomplishing something.
I you ever see Eric Kanese or Marc Denny or any of their top guys and you look past the hard core fighting. What I respect most about them guys is the know how to generate power, whic in todays world of Eskrima is rare. Another guy to checkout is Jimmy Tacosa of Serrada Eskrima excelent bdoy mechanics
Rocky
Rocky
I teach stick form , Espada y Daga form and knife form, but !!!!!!!!! I teach them movement by movement, to ensure body mechanics. Think of the way GM Buot teaches Subleeg or Tucos, this is how I teach form with a weapon or Espada Y Daga. Body mechanics body mechanics body mechanics if you don have them you will never reach your potential. Remember the guy from the NorthWest that slammed me for speaking my peace about the state of Modern Arnis? Well if you wanna see what not to look like when doing Espada Y Daga checkout his site, my post monday night football snooze in my recliner shows more body mechanics. To many people just walk through the moves and think they are occomplishing something.
I you ever see Eric Kanese or Marc Denny or any of their top guys and you look past the hard core fighting. What I respect most about them guys is the know how to generate power, whic in todays world of Eskrima is rare. Another guy to checkout is Jimmy Tacosa of Serrada Eskrima excelent bdoy mechanics
Rocky
Rocky
Cruentus
Grandmaster
If you read my post on empty hand forms...that basically describes how I feel about the cane Anyos.
Although, because people aren't used to having a weapon in there hand, the cane forms can be a great teaching tool.
I always tell people that although you could be using any object, treat the cane Anyos as if you had a blade. The body mechanics seem more condusive of blade fighting then stick fighting to me.
I think, when dealing with the anyos, much of it has to do with whether or not you like forms, or are a form based martial artist or not. I am not a form based martial artist, so my opinion of them will be different then someone who came from a form based system, or who learns well with forms.
Forms have a lot of good uses to them. I just don't use them myself much.
Although, because people aren't used to having a weapon in there hand, the cane forms can be a great teaching tool.
I always tell people that although you could be using any object, treat the cane Anyos as if you had a blade. The body mechanics seem more condusive of blade fighting then stick fighting to me.
I think, when dealing with the anyos, much of it has to do with whether or not you like forms, or are a form based martial artist or not. I am not a form based martial artist, so my opinion of them will be different then someone who came from a form based system, or who learns well with forms.
Forms have a lot of good uses to them. I just don't use them myself much.
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Mellowing Paul???
:rofl:
The cane forms are more accessible in my opinion, although I believe too many people butcher them by reducing them to by the numbers kiddie-kata.
Chad
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
For Sal's post above....
The forms were all very regional in execution. If you learned a form at, say, a Texas camp you might see it done very differently in the New England camp the following year. It all depended on the base art and basic talent of the teacher. Professor never made it an issue; this was part of his art within your art philosophy. It is also just a matter of basic mechanics. I learned many of the forms from members of the Connecticut group; but when I do them they look different because my basics are different. This is why I am not the person to go to for the WMAA versions of the anyos; I learned them differently from how Mr. Hartman teaches them. Application, on the other hand...
(See, diplomatic tonight).
It matters less how you do these things than what you can do with them. If they are a tool you use to develop yourself, your art, and your students, they have great value. If you hold on to them because they came from RP; they still have value, but perhaps you should question what you are holding on to. If you do them only because you have to at test time....you arent using them and arent being honest with yourself.
Chad
The forms were all very regional in execution. If you learned a form at, say, a Texas camp you might see it done very differently in the New England camp the following year. It all depended on the base art and basic talent of the teacher. Professor never made it an issue; this was part of his art within your art philosophy. It is also just a matter of basic mechanics. I learned many of the forms from members of the Connecticut group; but when I do them they look different because my basics are different. This is why I am not the person to go to for the WMAA versions of the anyos; I learned them differently from how Mr. Hartman teaches them. Application, on the other hand...
(See, diplomatic tonight).
It matters less how you do these things than what you can do with them. If they are a tool you use to develop yourself, your art, and your students, they have great value. If you hold on to them because they came from RP; they still have value, but perhaps you should question what you are holding on to. If you do them only because you have to at test time....you arent using them and arent being honest with yourself.
Chad
Sablig
Tukas
:asian:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
Anyo Isa:
1) Salute and Open. Step forward with the right leg and Strike a
Number (8) eight. Front walking stance.
2) Step forward with the left leg and Strike a Number (9) Nine.
Front Walking Stance.
3) Step forward with the right leg into a horseback stance facing west
and strike a four to the chest. Strike is to the North.
4) Step back with the right leg and perform a Down to the Right Block.
Front Walking Stance. Facing North.
5) Step back with the left leg and perform a Down to the Left Block.
Front Walking Stance. Facing North.
6) Step forward with the left leg and perform a Block to the Right with a
brace. Front Walking Stance. Facing North - East.
7) Step forward with the right leg and perform a Block to the Left without
a brace. Front Walking Stance. Facing North - West.
8) Step back with the right leg into an L stance while striking figure 8
up the middle of the opponent. The Figure 8 is a back hand up strike.
9) Step back with left leg, rotating 180 degrees to the left into a horseback
stance, where the body is facing the west, and the strike is figure 8 up
the middle to the West also.
10) Twirl over the head and then Strike straight down to the ground
11) Step back with right leg while rotating 90 degrees into a front
walking stance facing North, while performing a Down to the Right Block.
12 ) Step forward with the right leg back to zero and close.
1) Salute and Open. Step forward with the right leg and Strike a
Number (8) eight. Front walking stance.
2) Step forward with the left leg and Strike a Number (9) Nine.
Front Walking Stance.
3) Step forward with the right leg into a horseback stance facing west
and strike a four to the chest. Strike is to the North.
4) Step back with the right leg and perform a Down to the Right Block.
Front Walking Stance. Facing North.
5) Step back with the left leg and perform a Down to the Left Block.
Front Walking Stance. Facing North.
6) Step forward with the left leg and perform a Block to the Right with a
brace. Front Walking Stance. Facing North - East.
7) Step forward with the right leg and perform a Block to the Left without
a brace. Front Walking Stance. Facing North - West.
8) Step back with the right leg into an L stance while striking figure 8
up the middle of the opponent. The Figure 8 is a back hand up strike.
9) Step back with left leg, rotating 180 degrees to the left into a horseback
stance, where the body is facing the west, and the strike is figure 8 up
the middle to the West also.
10) Twirl over the head and then Strike straight down to the ground
11) Step back with right leg while rotating 90 degrees into a front
walking stance facing North, while performing a Down to the Right Block.
12 ) Step forward with the right leg back to zero and close.
Rich Parsons said:
Nicely stated Rich, but I know the anyo and can easily follow your description... a video clip would be very helpful for those folks who are
new to the art or have never been taught the anyo, for whatever reason.
I hope that you will consider doing it for us.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #15
DrBarber said:
I have a 35 mm camara that is a cheapy one that has been through Cedar Point's water rides one too many times and still works. No digital camera and no VCR camera. I never got into that portion of technology. Maybe I will in the future, just not set up for it for the near future.
Thank you for the suggestion.
dearnis.com said:
Hi Chad,
I most certinly agree with you about the ugliness of the "by the numbers" approach. It might be ok for the inital learning phase of the anyo, but by the tme someone gets to the point of presenting the anyo for testing and/or demonstration, the presenation should be rounded, smooth and flowing. The start-stop-start approach should be a distant memory and kept totally outside of public view.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
I teach them stick, espada y daga, and bolo. Stick and bolo anyos are in my most recent book, Modern Arnis The At Within Your Art - The Book Of Basics.Rich Parsons said:
Yours,
Dan
Darkmoon
Orange Belt
Rich! Well we both know Isa, Dalawa, Tatlo, and Apat. Both empty hand and with a stick. What a fellow student did is made a few wooden machetes. These where incredibly helpful in seeing the angle of attack with the strikes.
P.S. I'm still learning Leema and Anim. Hey are you going to be on the judging bord at Jay Spiro's Arnis test in December?
P.S. I'm still learning Leema and Anim. Hey are you going to be on the judging bord at Jay Spiro's Arnis test in December?
Cebu West said:
Hello Sal,
I noticed the very same thing early on in my Modern Arnis training and I asked Professor about that situation. He explained his rationale to me
and my instructor Sifu Don Zanhgi as follows and paraphrased not directly quoting:
'Since everyone has different body types and muscle structures, it is better to let them move within their individual comfort zones. They will be less nervous and have better concentration regarding the task and they will flow better. The goal is to start and finish. Completing the task is more imortant than looking like everyone else. Arnis is fighting art and no two people will fight exactly alike. Each person must fight within his/her own abilities and strenghts.'
When I started teaching Modern Arnis under Sifu Zanghi as an underbelt and later as the lead instructor at Erie Community College, I always stressed smooth, flowing seamless connections between the various sections of the anyos - cane or empty hand. However, there were several students who were not as elequent, smooth and graceful as my best anyo player, Richard Curren. He could glide, turn and shift from posture to posture better than all of us in the ECC group. Yet at testing time, Professor, rated all of my students by their individual ability to remain within their own body structures and movement styles. His highest praises actually went to a fellow named Tom Verga, a solidly build, heavily muscular fellow. Tom went from a very stiff, mechanical type movement to a softer, coordinated power-style movement in spite of having his elbows barely bending beyond twenty-two (22) degrees at any point in any of the anyos. Tom was a lathe operator and that job, 8 hours a day had reduced the range of motion in his forearms and elbows. My job as his instructor, following Professor's principles was to work within Tom's body mechanics and help him to develop the skills needed to start and complete the anyo as flawlessly as possible. Both Tom and I did our respective jobs.
Sal, by not asking Professor, you missed a grand opportunity to get an insightful bit of information from the man himself. Over the years that I worked with and was mentored by Professor, I asked a lot of questions that focused on teaching objectives and methods. I will go into some of those at a later time, because they do not fit within this thread.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
This may sound like a stupid question but when you refer to cane forms are you talking about an actual cane (36-46 onches) or about a stick.
If a stick how many teach the same form with a walking cane or walking stick
If a stick how many teach the same form with a walking cane or walking stick
