Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

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PhotonGuy

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Wow, not sure how I misread that. Then yes, I would want his coach at my coach.
So then by the same token, if there's a sensei who is well known for producing really good fighters and some of the fighters who trained under him went on to become world champions it makes sense that you would want him as your sensei (if you want to be good in the martial arts) and that he certainly would not be running a McDojo.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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So then by the same token, if there's a sensei who is well known for producing really good fighters and some of the fighters who trained under him went on to become world champions it makes sense that you would want him as your sensei (if you want to be good in the martial arts) and that he certainly would not be running a McDojo.
Yes. Which again was the point I was making. That a someone famous for being a coach/sensei is who you want to look at for training, not necessarily someone just famous for their own ability.
 

Hyoho

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To be fair he was indeed famous for martial arts.
But as has been noted for most people being good at martial arts doesnt necessarily mean being able to fight.

His 1 inch punch was a martial arts thing and he was famous for it. Id say he was definitely more famous as an actor and philosopher than as an actual martial artist though.
I was doing that kind of thing years ago with Japanese karate instruction. To hold closed hands in front of your face, with a fist the far side. Then open them and try and close them again before the punch passed through.
 

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Bruce Lee is famous as a movie star and a martial arts philosopher.
Even his philosophy was derivative - a mish-mash of other (great) peoples idea. In fact, its slightly cringey to read.

I have to say, Bruce Lees estate have done a skilful job at presenting a very particular and positive face of Lee (do read Pollys fascinating尖ou wont be able to put it down!). When Shannon Lees book about her father, came out it came up on the top of every search I did for MA - before you say this is normal marketing, this was on another (expensive) level.

I think great teachers are born rather than develop. A poor teacher can be trained to be a better teacher, but they will never be great, inspirational teachers able to explain complex ideas in different ways, depending upon the target audience (or individual). Having said that, Id suggest Mcdojo tend to have scripted inspirational teachers because the art they present are style over substance and so require grand claims and unrealistic goals, (made realistic by their promotion structure). They are very seductive and I have observed one in particular from the inside!
 

GojuTommy

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Even his philosophy was derivative - a mish-mash of other (great) peoples idea. In fact, its slightly cringey to read.

I have to say, Bruce Lees estate have done a skilful job at presenting a very particular and positive face of Lee (do read Pollys fascinating尖ou wont be able to put it down!). When Shannon Lees book about her father, came out it came up on the top of every search I did for MA - before you say this is normal marketing, this was on another (expensive) level.

I think great teachers are born rather than develop. A poor teacher can be trained to be a better teacher, but they will never be great, inspirational teachers able to explain complex ideas in different ways, depending upon the target audience (or individual). Having said that, Id suggest Mcdojo tend to have scripted inspirational teachers because the art they present are style over substance and so require grand claims and unrealistic goals, (made realistic by their promotion structure). They are very seductive and I have observed one in particular from the inside!
I mean has there been any philosphy thats actually original in the last century?
 

Gyakuto

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I mean has there been any philosphy thats actually original in the last century?
Yes Im sure there has been地fter all, how many academic departments of Philosophy (research, as well as teaching facilities) are there around the the world in Universities? Theyre probably refinements to the foundations laid by the greats just like General Relativity is a major refinement of Newtons ideas on gravity. What Lee didnt do in his books was reference where the original philosophical concept originated, such that the casual reader might assume he devised them. Thats plagiarism.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Yes Im sure there has been地fter all, how many academic departments of Philosophy (research, as well as teaching facilities) are there around the the world in Universities? Theyre probably refinements to the foundations laid by the greats just like General Relativity is a major refinement of Newtons ideas on gravity. What Lee didnt do in his books was reference where the original philosophical concept originated, such that the casual reader might assume he devised them. Thats plagiarism.
Exactly.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I left the discussion as so many here seem to get offended when a novice has an opinion

go figure...getting offended on a forum
The thing about Dirty Dog, and Im just speaking from my own observations from reading his posts and his responses, is that, first of all, he states his opinion as if its fact but more importantly, he refuses to get your point. If you're trying to make a point Dirty Dog will just refuse to get it. Now that's not the same as agreeing with a point, somebody can get your point and disagree with it, but the problem is when they miss your point altogether.

Getting somebody's point and disagreeing with it is one thing, not getting somebody's point in the first place is something else.
 

hongkongfooey

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Everybody cut, everybody cut
Everybody cut, everybody cut
Everybody cut, everybody cut
Everybody cut footloose!
 

Gyakuto

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Funnily enough, Ive always wondered how accomplished dancers would fare in the traditional martial arts. I see some hip hop dancers, for example, throwing themselves around with amazing accuracy, power and finesse, often from a full supine position! Leaping, acrobatics, spinning around on one leg, all with great aesthetic value. And then see martial arts students struggle to rise from a kneeling position to standing or bob their heads forward when they front kick! Wouldnt these dancers find the martial arts relatively easy? Does anyone know a dancer who excels at MA?
 

Tony Dismukes

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Funnily enough, Ive always wondered how accomplished dancers would fare in the traditional martial arts. I see some hip hop dancers, for example, throwing themselves around with amazing accuracy, power and finesse, often from a full supine position! Leaping, acrobatics, spinning around on one leg, all with great aesthetic value. And then see martial arts students struggle to rise from a kneeling position to standing or bob their heads forward when they front kick! Wouldnt these dancers find the martial arts relatively easy? Does anyone know a dancer who excels at MA?
I think having a strong dance background would offer the same advantage as having any other sort of strong athletic background. The attributes of strength, flexibility, endurance, balance, kinesthetic awareness, coordination, mental focus, etc are all invaluable.
 

Steve

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I think having a strong dance background would offer the same advantage as having any other sort of strong athletic background. The attributes of strength, flexibility, endurance, balance, kinesthetic awareness, coordination, mental focus, etc are all invaluable.
Exactly this. Being in shape, strong, flexible, and explosive are all great attributes. But the same could be said about playing basketball, rugby, or soccer.

I do see some of the techniques of break dancing coming out of TKD tricking and parkour. There's definitely some xover there. But dancing is a broad category of activity. Ball room dancing, particularly if not done at a high level, isn't going to do much to help your karate or whatever.
 

Steve

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The thing about Dirty Dog, and Im just speaking from my own observations from reading his posts and his responses, is that, first of all, he states his opinion as if its fact but more importantly, he refuses to get your point. If you're trying to make a point Dirty Dog will just refuse to get it. Now that's not the same as agreeing with a point, somebody can get your point and disagree with it, but the problem is when they miss your point altogether.

Getting somebody's point and disagreeing with it is one thing, not getting somebody's point in the first place is something else.
I get the impression that he's going through some stuff and am inclined to offer the poor guy some grace.
 

Gyakuto

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Exactly this. Being in shape, strong, flexible, and explosive are all great attributes. But the same could be said about playing basketball, rugby, or soccer.
But dancers (not that ballroom sequinned bunkum, but proper breakdancing/hip hop stuff) have exquisite balance and flexibility well beyond what Ive seen in basketball, rugby or football players. Dancing and kata are so close albeit it not in intent.
 

Steve

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But dancers (not that ballroom sequinned bunkum, but proper breakdancing/hip hop stuff) have exquisite balance and flexibility well beyond what Ive seen in basketball, rugby or football players. Dancing and kata are so close albeit it not in intent.
Maybe. Quick aside, as someone who went to an inner city high school in the 80s, I remember when break dancing was cool and really new. At the time, general belief was that break dancing was NOT dancing.

40 years later, and you're referring to break dancing as "proper", and the other stuff is "bunkum." How far we have come. :D

But to the point of the thread, I think folks who are athletic are going to appreciate benefits of their athleticism in any physical activity. But I don't think kata, for example, and break dancing are all that close.

Look at it like this. Get a ballet dancer (graceful, strong... really strong, athletic, flexible, etc) and ask them to break dance. Or get a top level break dancer and ask them to perform ballet. How much crossover is there? I would say little, and the same I think is true for martial arts.
 

MetalBoar

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Maybe. Quick aside, as someone who went to an inner city high school in the 80s, I remember when break dancing was cool and really new. At the time, general belief was that break dancing was NOT dancing.

40 years later, and you're referring to break dancing as "proper", and the other stuff is "bunkum." How far we have come. :D

But to the point of the thread, I think folks who are athletic are going to appreciate benefits of their athleticism in any physical activity. But I don't think kata, for example, and break dancing are all that close.

Look at it like this. Get a ballet dancer (graceful, strong... really strong, athletic, flexible, etc) and ask them to break dance. Or get a top level break dancer and ask them to perform ballet. How much crossover is there? I would say little, and the same I think is true for martial arts.
I think it depends a little on whether you're talking about someone who does breakdancing, or any dancing really, as primarily a free form thing vs. someone who focuses on choreographed performance as one part of this question and whether being able to perform a kata without understanding it counts as being "close" as another.

I used to work with a guy who'd been doing TKD for a few years and his sister (who had been doing choreographed dance performances since she was like 5 and was now in her mid 20's) decided she wanted to try it out. The speed with which she picked up forms drove him crazy. She was in great shape and very skilled at memorizing choreographed routines. She very rapidly learned all the forms that were thrown at her and she thought it was super easy because she'd learned and really practiced how to quickly pickup a new dance routine. She had no comprehension of how to apply any of those movements for sparring or what their purpose was supposed to be, but you could show her a new form and she'd have it memorized and could perform it close to perfectly in a single class.

Does that count? I think it depends on what you care about. Does that tell me that there's some kinesthetic memorization and learning techniques that are taught in modern dance that are much better than whatever a lot of MA schools are using? Either that or she was some kind of freak prodigy, or maybe a little of both. I'm not super big on forms, but I'd love to be able to perform the movements of the Wu Tai Chi form very competently in a couple of weeks and then spend the rest of my time just learning how to apply them in a MA context.
 
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