Buy your way to Heaven! The Catholic Church brings back indulgences!

[granfire]

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

I tend to agree....

The last time I checked the only atrocities commited by Santa were not bringing me that bike I wanted when I was 6.

deliberately obtuse, aren't we....

Nobody however is making anyone believe anything, people will always believe what they wish. No one makes people believe in UFOs etc, probably quite the opposite as most people will scoff at you if you say they exist.

The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable, if they were in any way Christian they wouldn't be doing in the first place! I doubt they care whether they think they are going to hell or not.

It's the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.

Well, look at the mafia bosses. The old guard, the original ones...a lot of them good staunch Catholics...with all the stuff about the commandments and such, many were said to be generous to their communities - and church.
One can only assume whether or not they wanted to by salvation.

But there are a few people who excell in the art of warping people's minds. making them believe the ridiculous, to have them commit the atrocious.
History books and the news are full of those stories.
The good reverend who herded his flock to the jungles of South America...while popular lore has it it was mass suicide, some people say it was outright murder...
to assaulting people who's 'lifestyle' does not agree with the current religious order's doctrine.
The crusades....
the pogroms throughout history, the genocide committed on all kinds of peoples, in the name of religion.

 

[ballen0351]

yeah, it's different.

You 'donate' to the church directly, you buy the head guy a new silk robe, in the addition to the hundreds he already has.

Actually I know exactly where my money goes that I donate to the church Im on the board and it must be approved by the board before it is spent. Also my pastor does not wear any robes normally hes not even wearing a tie we are very casual in our dress code.

You donate to wounded warrior or St Jude's you buy somebody services they don't already have a lot of.

Fact is I have alot less control over what they do with my money then I do at my church

 

[ballen0351]

It's not laughable, it's historical. When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven. Why shouldn't we expect that again?

People wont all of a sudden start committing hideous acts just because now they can BUY a way into heaven. People that will comit these acts will commit these act no matter what people that wont commit these acts wont.

That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one. Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?

We dont need to extend the concept to anything else because none of that matters on this topic. This topic is about indulgences nothing more or less.

 

[Tez3]

It's not laughable, it's historical. When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven. Why shouldn't we expect that again?

That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one. Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?

Perhaps it's laughable because for decades these people have being criminals doing some horrendous things and only now they can pay and be forgiven? hardly. They didn't care when there weren't indulgences so why start now? All of a sudden they are going to be really bad because they can pay their way into 'heaven'?
I accept that criminals such as the Mafia have and do donate money to their churches but they've done that long before this selling of indulgences came back. It won't make any difference to their behaviour.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, look at the mafia bosses. The old guard, the original ones...a lot of them good staunch Catholics...with all the stuff about the commandments and such, many were said to be generous to their communities - and church.
One can only assume whether or not they wanted to by salvation.

But there are a few people who excell in the art of warping people's minds. making them believe the ridiculous, to have them commit the atrocious.
History books and the news are full of those stories.
The good reverend who herded his flock to the jungles of South America...while popular lore has it it was mass suicide, some people say it was outright murder...
to assaulting people who's 'lifestyle' does not agree with the current religious order's doctrine.
The crusades....
the pogroms throughout history, the genocide committed on all kinds of peoples, in the name of religion.

And there have been MILLIONS of other evil crimes that had nothing to do with Religion. So What? An evil person is an Evil person no matter what they give to a church they are still evil. No amount of money will change that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Martin Luther would not be pleased...but what the heck what was good for Pope Leo X is good for Pope Benedict XVI I guess..... However I doubt Pope Benedict XVI has done this for the same reasons Pope Leo X did it...well it may be for the same reasons but I doubt the what got them here was the same

 

[elder999]

And there have been MILLIONS of other evil crimes that had nothing to do with Religion. So What? An evil person is an Evil person no matter what they give to a church they are still evil. No amount of money will change that.

On the other hand, Old Testament doctrine has it that the blood of bulls and goats can wash away sin.

Hebrews 9:22 : according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

New Testament doctrine has it that the blood of Christ washes away sin.

Ephesians 1:7-In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

And it's a complicated theological argument from there. At one time the Catholic church granted indulgences-sometimes, as in the case of the Crusades, wholesale, and in anticipation of sin yet to occur-in other words, Crusaders were forgiven any evil they might commit in the quest to take the Holy Land.

Today, not so much, and really, who cares? Evil will be done-whether it will truly be forgiven, and the soul of the evil doer admitted to Paradise? Kind of between them and God, isn't it? I mean, maybe jihadis really do wind up in heaven with 72 virgins, if that's what they believe......

That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one.

Yep, yep. I'm from New York: Thou shalt obey the Third commandment: Mind thine own business! And the fourth is like unto it:Keep yer yap shut! :lfao:

Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?

And, again, this is a very flexible thing, isn't it? I don't think many people in the U.S., especially non-Muslims-and even quite a few Muslims, have any problem criticizing the jihadis belief in a virgin filled paradise as a reward for martyrdom.

That, though, harms others-in that it makes acts of violence, warfare and terrorism themselves into redeeming religious ritual, which is one difference from "buying your way to Heaven," where the commission of sins is separate from the redeeming act-while those that "buy their way into Heaven" may have committed terrible deeds, those terrible deeds are preumably separate from their religious observance, whether it is confessing those deeds and doing some form of penance, or simply paying cash.

As for the "rudeness" of it, well-it isn't rude to say what you think of a belief, or write about it in a philosophical or theological critique, but it's the height of rudeness to offer an individual negative criticism about their personal religious beliefs when those beliefs don't harm anyone else, even if they are harmful or potentially harmful to the individual.

Good example, the Sundance: on four occasions, one summer after the next, I went without food or water for four days, bound to a tree, dancing, blowing an eagle-thigh whistle, and gazing at the sun-I was bound to the tree by leather thongs attached to skewers that went through the flesh on my chest, and on the fourth day I broke the skewers free. One year, I dragged two buffalo skulls from skewers on my back.

View attachment $sundance.jpg

Pretty gross, huh?


Of course, it didn't hurt you, or anyone else, and my reasons for doing it are just that: my reasons: no one forced me to do it, and it wasn't any kind of requirement-in fact, a fair amount of discouragement was offered before allowing me to commit to such a serious undertaking.We could certainly discuss the motivations for such an admittedly extreme act, or the belief system that undergirds the ceremony-whole books have been written about it-but you can't criticize me for believing what I believe, and doing what I do, without being "rude."

Of course, I forgive you, John-in advance of any potential rudeness. :lol:

 

[Tez3]

And the worst we can do is eat a bacon sandwich! though even that's allowed if the alternative is starvation...

 

[granfire]

And the worst we can do is eat a bacon sandwich! though even that's allowed if the alternative is starvation...

Didn't mean like a bacon shrimp sandwich, smothered in cream gravy?

 

[jks9199]

The Catholic Church has maintained the practice of granting indulgences for many years; there's a note in the front of the study Bible I used in elementary school that mentions a plenary indulgence for reading the Bible for a certain length of time. Generally, they're attached to good works or prayer, though they can be attached to alms giving. See HERE for a podcast discussing indulgences, or HERE for a textual account. From the second link:

To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.

Absolutely nothing here suggests that you can buy your way out of sin, and the indulgence only comes into play AFTER the sin is forgiven through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. (As a side note; committing a sin with the plan or intent to do it, and then go to confession, can be seen as invalidating the confession, or even a form of sacrilege since there was arguably a lack of true repententance or contrition.) Perhaps a loose comparison might be made to a judge in a traffic case suspending all or part of the fine for an offense because the defendant went to traffic school or had a good record.

On another note -- I have a real issue with the nearly insulting, definitely patronizing attitude some of the atheists around here take towards those who believe, not to mention the open hostility towards the Catholic Church. You don't have to believe as I do; that's entirely your choice and your right. But that doesn't mean you get to attack me or others who believe, belittle us, treat us like children, or otherwise demean us -- you undercut your point. Yes, I absolutely admit the Church has had its failings, in the recent past, and throughout its history. But that doesn't mean that every priest, every bishop, or every cardinal is guilty, any more than . As one example, in response to a comment above, diocesan priests are generally free to own property; they don't take a vow of poverty like most religious order priests do. That said -- most only own a few sets of vestments, and often, those are gifts that they have received from family, friends, or congregations.

EDIT: One more thought on vestments... They're work clothes for the priest, not unlike a cop's uniform or a firefighter's bunker gear.

 

[granfire]

I think there is only one person who claims to be atheist, and I don't think he said anything about this.

I don't consider myself atheist. Not one bit.

However, I have seen a good many people damaged by organized religion. And not just the Catholic church. There are plenty enough of the god clubs around here who don't pull punches. Consider me jaded in terms of all organized religion, regardless of denomination.

Then again, I was raised in a culture where most people go through the motions of 'Christianity' but mostly not. Unlike the US, when in Germany somebody tells you he/she is a Christian - again, any denomination - it is a strong step. Not like around my part where it takes more back bone to proclaim you don't see any sense in it.
I don't think I have seen people being ridiculed/attacked over it.

On the other hand, around here everybody pushes religion to the forefront and is then in turn offended when A) called of on discrepancies or B) reminded that it can be intrusive. (I suppose it does not help my point when I fall over laughing when my neighbors collectively wonder if Catholics believe in Jesus...)

There is faith and there is following the lead lemming.
The peeps in Rome have had a hard time making out the difference. But I guess having had a death grip on people's souls for over 1500 years, going on 2000 can skew your perspective.

And I am sorry, I will find equally amusing points in just about any form of organized religion.


(If it wasn't for that bacon thing I could almost see myself looking into Judaism...question the question....)


Having said that, and while I am taking pot shots at the leadership, I will also dig through the lore of the religion of my friends and do such silly things as bake a cake for the name sake saint's feast. Considering I have no earthy idea how that day is really celebrated. (yes, done did that, because he's a friend. sorry, cake got eaten before I thought of taking pictures)

 

[Big Don]

Cash and Carry turns my stomach a little less than Explosions and Exxxctasy

 

[granfire]

Cash and Carry turns my stomach a little less than Explosions and Exxxctasy

true.