Bully instructors

[sgtmac_46]

LOL. He's a very successful bully. Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy. He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV. If it's an act, it's a good one. He plays a very successful bully on TV.

The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it. There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.

Patton was a 'bully' by your definition........but the Nazis feared him more than any Allied general. He 'bullied' his troops during the Battle of the Bulge on forced march across hundreds of miles that was considered impossible to surprise both enemies and allies alike.

The 'bullies' you describe move heaven and earth......and because they demand FAR MORE of those under them than those people remotely think they can humanly deliver, they are considered 'bullies'.

The irony is that Patton was far more loyal to his subordinates, only firing one of his officers, than Bradley, who was thought a 'nice guy'........but Bradley fired several of his own officers, being a bit passive aggressive.

I'll take an assertive 'bully' to a passive aggressive any day of the week.......because you ALWAYS know where you stand with such a man.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.

 

[Carol]

The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.

If the culture was that effeminate, his show wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain...let alone so popular that one still photo makes him instantly recognizable to a diverse group of adults such as the folks here. I think he's regarded as a bully because of way too much incompetence. There are far too many poseurs out there are more than happy to portray self-indulgent behaviour, without the results to back it up.

 

[Blade96]

That is really like saying you knew a car was a 74 mustang because they have wheels and this car has wheels too.

Many traditional JMA have their practicioners wearing hakama. The locks etc are also very common in traditional jujutsu systems. The clip could have easily been of any of several dozen of jujutsu systems. Like daito ryu aikijujutsu for example:

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yeah well aikido is the only one that i knew of where they wear hakamas....with my ignorant knowledge.

 

[sgtmac_46]

If the culture was that effeminate, his show wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain...let alone so popular that one still photo makes him instantly recognizable to a diverse group of adults such as the folks here. I think he's regarded as a bully because of way too much incompetence. There are far too many poseurs out there are more than happy to portray self-indulgent behaviour, without the results to back it up.

I think that's because there is a backlash in the culture against it's over-feminization........Ironically enough many of those backlashing are women themselves.

 

[Steve]

The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.

In an unskilled position where employees are disposable, this kind of management style can work. Call them a donut, swear at them and if they quit, hire another cog.

In any position where the employees are not disposable and are skilled, this kind of management style is the opposite of "results driven." I'm not a touchy feely guy, but I do have this thing about treating people with respect. My experience has been when people start rambling on about "feelings' they're trying to rationalize their own behavior. I would never sit down with an employee and talk about his or her feelings. But I can talk to an employee about performance without swearing, calling them names, intimidating or demeaning him or her. It's not that hard to do.

Any good manager you see manages behavior, not feelings.

And once again, because it seems like you missed it, I have made it very clear that Ramsay is clearly a good leader and a good manager. If his shows are representative of his actual management style, he's also a bully.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I'm pretty sure the TV Ramsey is different then the real life Ramsey. You can tell watching his shows towards the end when hes not playing the "roll" he seems to really care about the people hes helping.

The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.

 

[ballen0351]

The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.

Well There you go I guess he really is an jerk.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In an unskilled position where employees are disposable, this kind of management style can work. Call them a donut, swear at them and if they quit, hire another cog.

In any position where the employees are not disposable and are skilled, this kind of management style is the opposite of "results driven." I'm not a touchy feely guy, but I do have this thing about treating people with respect. My experience has been when people start rambling on about "feelings' they're trying to rationalize their own behavior. I would never sit down with an employee and talk about his or her feelings. But I can talk to an employee about performance without swearing, calling them names, intimidating or demeaning him or her. It's not that hard to do.

Any good manager you see manages behavior, not feelings.

And once again, because it seems like you missed it, I have made it very clear that Ramsay is clearly a good leader and a good manager. If his shows are representative of his actual management style, he's also a bully.

As I said, a 'bully' is a pretty subjective term.........to some touchy/feely people, ANYONE who is 'assertive' is a 'bully'.

But bully has become the new term du jour for someone we simply don't have a good feeling about......it's the new 'fascist'.......I suspect it's because we are inundated in the media with the term 'This person was bullied, that person was bullied'.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.

Apparently it's 'good' to be a bully.

 

[Steve]

As I said, a 'bully' is a pretty subjective term.........to some touchy/feely people, ANYONE who is 'assertive' is a 'bully'.

But bully has become the new term du jour for someone we simply don't have a good feeling about......it's the new 'fascist'.

Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand better now.

If being assertive is being a bully, I'm sure I fit the bill according to some. I posted a link to a document prepared by the Washington State Dept. of Labor on the subject of workplace bullies. It's pretty good and articulates pretty well what I mean when I say "bully."

Assertive, clear expectations, accountability and direct communication aren't bullying, even if the conversation is uncomfortable and direct. Humiliation, intimidation, and disrespect are.

Good: "I asked you to do "X." You did "Y." That's not going to work and as a result "Z" is the consequence. In the future, when I ask for X, I expect you to give me X."

Bad: "Oh come on, YOU DONKEY! I asked for X and you're an idiot. This is "Y." "YYYYYYY!!!!" Come on, you DONUT! If you're too much of a baby to do it right, quit. QUIT! QUIT! QUIT! Don't eyeball me! Get out of my face! Next time, I'll throw you out on your fat butt, you stupid cow."

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

On the point of Ramsay, yes he's successful but I wonder how much of what we see is for the sake of TV and ratings? It makes for good tv.
As for his agreessive form of "leadership"? If I knew a manager/chef was that aggressive with his staff, I wouldn't eat there, something about stress and food I don't like. It shows when a cook loves what they're doing, it comes through in their cooking, when they are too stressed, that comes through in their cooking too and I definitely wouldn't pay for it.

A good friend of mine went to culinary school and was intent upon becoming a chef. When he entered the work world, he found that he did not have the skin for it. I don't know if Ramsay's style is the norm, but the field is apparently not for the thin skinned.

He didn't complain about it, though he did change fields because he said that he couldn't hack it in that environment.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I found this rather chilling ...

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In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes. It just made me sick and I had to turn it off. How common is this sort of thing? We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.

I've been that guy for years (the one getting tossed around) Learned a lot! I never perceived my instructor as a bully, and after being a kid who was bullied in school through middle school, I am farily good at picking out bullies.

Others here have covered what is happening in this video, so aside from agreeing that this is not bullying, I won't comment any further, aside from saying that an outsider's perceptions is often very different.

Personally, I can happily say that I've only ever encountered one bully in my vast 2+ years of MA experience. He was considerate enough to be rude and arrogant over the phone, thus saving me the trip. Now that's customer service. :uhyeah:

A fortuitous outcome!

Daniel