strength through flexibility

[slowmo]

Hello,
i've been discussing this lately with a couple of supaninjas and find it rather interesting
in hayes/hatsumi:ninjutsu history and tradition it says:

in togakure training strength is generated through flexibility

whats your take on this?how important do you think flexibility is for ninpo and why?
i'll speak for myself:all my life i've been the ultraskinny,ultraweak but ULTRAflexible kid in neighboorhood.its only natural i guess that over the years of my musha shygyo i've developed a style where i use my flexibility to overcome the strength of the big guys.i do this in two ways(generalization):a)i mingle my hands with his or my legs with his and take stange,yogic-like "kamaes" and they cant follow so they break their posture and become vulnerable(if they havent already fallen)
b)when i play with the really BIG bad wolves my style is almost acrobatic: lots of sutemi where i jump and grab them with my legs.Or let them do nage and do acrobatic escapes so that i dont have to break their postures,they do it for me!Or combining splits with ultralow postures to cover ridiculusly big distances really quickly and overwhelm them(very difficult to describe in words but very hilarious to watch,i swear!)

so,in "my ninpo" flexibility is very important but the problem is this:i know i wont be able to fight like this when i'm 40 years old.And where will all this neato elito sutemi stuff take me in a multiopponent situation?i'm pretty sure these issues will fix themselves if i "just keep going" but how important do you think flexibility is in the way,eg Hatsumi fights?
Oh, and what about my initial question?(the emoticon in the title was meant to come here,its my first post)

Forgive my incomprehensible writing,its done in a brainstorming fashion,feel free to do the same
cheers

 

[Steve]

Hello,
i've been discussing this lately with a couple of supaninjas and find it rather interesting
in hayes/hatsumi:ninjutsu history and tradition it says:

whats your take on this?how important do you think flexibility is for ninpo and why?
i'll speak for myself:all my life i've been the ultraskinny,ultraweak but ULTRAflexible kid in neighboorhood.its only natural i guess that over the years of my musha shygyo i've developed a style where i use my flexibility to overcome the strength of the big guys.i do this in two ways(generalization):a)i mingle my hands with his or my legs with his and take stange,yogic-like "kamaes" and they cant follow so they break their posture and become vulnerable(if they havent already fallen)
b)when i play with the really BIG bad wolves my style is almost acrobatic: lots of sutemi where i jump and grab them with my legs.Or let them do nage and do acrobatic escapes so that i dont have to break their postures,they do it for me!Or combining splits with ultralow postures to cover ridiculusly big distances really quickly and overwhelm them(very difficult to describe in words but very hilarious to watch,i swear!)

so,in "my ninpo" flexibility is very important but the problem is this:i know i wont be able to fight like this when i'm 40 years old.And where will all this neato elito sutemi stuff take me in a multiopponent situation?i'm pretty sure these issues will fix themselves if i "just keep going" but how important do you think flexibility is in the way,eg Hatsumi fights?
Oh, and what about my initial question?(the emoticon in the title was meant to come here,its my first post)

Forgive my incomprehensible writing,its done in a brainstorming fashion,feel free to do the same
cheers

I'm sorry, but I just can't forgive your incomprehensible writing. I tried to read your post and couldn't get through it. I'm not overly concerned about a typo here and there. But, dude. This post is a hot mess.

If English isn't your native language, let us know and we'll cut you some slack in the grammar deparment. Otherwise, have some pride.

 

[slowmo]

stevebjj said:I'm sorry, but I just can't forgive your incomprehensible writing. I tried to read your post and couldn't get through it. I'm not overly concerned about a typo here and there. But, dude. This post is a hot mess.

If English isn't your native language, let us know and we'll cut you some slack in the grammar deparment. Otherwise, have some pride.

Hey steve thanks for your kind words but if i was looking for an ego boost i'd go see my ex-wife.

Steve,I'm not here to kill my time,I'm really interested in this subject so if you have anything to share please do

Thank you

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi slowmo,

First things first, I'm going to suggest (strongly recommend) a quick trip over to the Meet and Greet section to tell us a bit about yourself. For example, you give your primary art as "ninpo", however the way you are describing things here comes across as if you have just read a few books and not understood what it is actually describing. I'll take it bit by bit...

Hello,
i've been discussing this lately with a couple of supaninjas and find it rather interesting

Okay, my first question is your age. This style of writing isn't that of an adult, really.

in hayes/hatsumi:ninjutsu history and tradition it says:

whats your take on this?how important do you think flexibility is for ninpo and why?

This entire sentence is rather badly worded... as Steve said, if English isn't your native language, simply let us know and we'll take that into account when reading your posts, if it is, you may need to try harder...

If you are asking if flexibility is important, then yes. It's not necessary to be able to do the splits across the top ropes of a boxing ring, though. The idea of flexibility being important is more to do with the relaxed, natural approach of the physical aspects of the art, as well as being an influence to a "flexible" mind.

i'll speak for myself:all my life i've been the ultraskinny,ultraweak but ULTRAflexible kid in neighboorhood.its only natural i guess that over the years of my musha shygyo i've developed a style where i use my flexibility to overcome the strength of the big guys.

"Over the years of your musha shugyo"? Hmm, to be honest this really comes across as fanboy-speak, and I don't know that you really get what it means.

i do this in two ways(generalization):a)i mingle my hands with his or my legs with his and take stange,yogic-like "kamaes" and they cant follow so they break their posture and become vulnerable(if they havent already fallen)
b)when i play with the really BIG bad wolves my style is almost acrobatic: lots of sutemi where i jump and grab them with my legs.Or let them do nage and do acrobatic escapes so that i dont have to break their postures,they do it for me!Or combining splits with ultralow postures to cover ridiculusly big distances really quickly and overwhelm them(very difficult to describe in words but very hilarious to watch,i swear!)

Yeah, again, this is pretty fanboy-style speech... and doens't sound like Ninjutsu at all. You also seem to misunderstand sutemi, kamae (not kamaes, there is no pluralisation in Japanese like that), and more. And ultralow postures? Really? Hmm, not looking good here....

so,in "my ninpo" flexibility is very important but the problem is this:i know i wont be able to fight like this when i'm 40 years old.And where will all this neato elito sutemi stuff take me in a multiopponent situation?i'm pretty sure these issues will fix themselves if i "just keep going" but how important do you think flexibility is in the way,eg Hatsumi fights?
Oh, and what about my initial question?(the emoticon in the title was meant to come here,its my first post)

Okay, "your ninpo"? And you haven't seen Hatsumi move if you're doubting the ability to continue to do such things when you're 40.... which is still damn young, in this art!

Forgive my incomprehensible writing,its done in a brainstorming fashion,feel free to do the same
cheers

Er, thanks? But no, I think I'll stick to comprehensible, thank you. I suggest you try to reign yours into something closer as well.

 

[Carol]

Don't you need flexibility to walk up walls and stuff? :idunno:

*ducks for cover*

:redcaptur

 

[slowmo]

Mr Chris Parker,I have read some of your posts and find it obvious that you love your art,take it seriously and that you're not just a hobbyist.In that regard,you must have found my post naive,childish and offensive. Nevertheless,you took the time to reply and you took the effort to reply politely,for that I can only feel great respect for you.

I'm 95%interested in the ninjutsu forum so I'll do my meet&greet here:I'm 25 and Greek.I trained in TKD ,THai box and GrekoRoman Wrestling for some years(well I trained in wrestling since I was 12).Although my knowledge in TMA was extremely limited I eventually became interested in arts like aikido,BBT,judo etc.The reason:being an ultranaive,ultrapeaceful gyu and ultra ignorant about MA,I thought that by utilizing locks I could end a fight without having to hit the other gyu(I hate hitting people as much as I hate people hitting me).Not only that but I thought I could submit the other gyu in a way that he won't feel he lost face and he won't feel a need to prove anything to his bodies and/or to take revenge.It's semi-arbitrary the fact that I begun BBT classes instead of some other art like aikido,jujutsu,etc.But this is not arbitrary at all:2 years ago(after attending BBT classes for 3 years) I decided that I'll dedicate all my time and energy only to ninjutsu(ie I realised I was hooked).Why was I hooked?I'm sure all you hooked gyus know why!!!

Lets get busy:
Why do I use words like supaninjas,musha shygyo,kamaes,ninpo?The reason why I am so careless is because frankly I couldn't care less(pun intended).It's reactive:I hate these anal nerds that take words TOO seriously and get stuck in meaningless debates about words.Guess I'm in the opposite extreme of the spectrum:they're too carefull,I'm too careless.From now on I'll try to make better use of words and articulate my thoughts in a more comprehensible manner ,because I respect and enjoy talking with all you cool people!!!

I won't argue about my misuse of "sutemi".I used it meaning"in order to throw them I also throw myself" though I understand that "sutemi" has a much deeper meaning.It implies a spirit of self-sacrifice,like a mother trying to save her children not minding what happens to her.

I don't understand whats the problem with "ultralow postures" but again,it's difficult to describe in words my thoughts.In taichi form there's a movement where you change(transist?) from a very low ichimonji to a very low ihen very quickly without lifting your feet from the ground.With a little practice you can keep low postures and still be very agile and fast.I think this is very cool!

chris parker said

The idea of flexibility being important is more to do with the relaxed, natural approach of the physical aspects of the art, as well as being an influence to a "flexible" mind.

Thanks for the interesting insight.It was the greeks(hehe) who said "sound mind in a sound body" but of course few people understand the true meaning of this(who am I to claim genuine understanding of the concept"mind and body are one"? Its not somehing to consider intellectually)

IMHO the reason why Hatsumi is in this shape at this age has little to do with physical training and lots t do with spiritual training(I'm aware that I'm approaching lalaland here!).Us,mere mortals can never expect to be like him ,but that doesn't stop us from getting inspired and trying to live healthily,right?

What do you gyus think about the quote in my first post,the one from the Hayes/Hatsumi book?

cheers

 

[Tanaka]

Mr Chris Parker,I have read some of your posts and find it obvious that you love your art,take it seriously and that you're not just a hobbyist.In that regard,you must have found my post naive,childish and offensive. Nevertheless,you took the time to reply and you took the effort to reply politely,for that I can only feel great respect for you.

I'm 95%interested in the ninjutsu forum so I'll do my meet&greet here:I'm 25 and Greek.I trained in TKD ,THai box and GrekoRoman Wrestling for some years(well I trained in wrestling since I was 12).Although my knowledge in TMA was extremely limited I eventually became interested in arts like aikido,BBT,judo etc.The reason:being an ultranaive,ultrapeaceful gyu and ultra ignorant about MA,I thought that by utilizing locks I could end a fight without having to hit the other gyu(I hate hitting people as much as I hate people hitting me).Not only that but I thought I could submit the other gyu in a way that he won't feel he lost face and he won't feel a need to prove anything to his bodies and/or to take revenge.It's semi-arbitrary the fact that I begun BBT classes instead of some other art like aikido,jujutsu,etc.But this is not arbitrary at all:2 years ago(after attending BBT classes for 3 years) I decided that I'll dedicate all my time and energy only to ninjutsu(ie I realised I was hooked).Why was I hooked?I'm sure all you hooked gyus know why!!!

Lets get busy:
Why do I use words like supaninjas,musha shygyo,kamaes,ninpo?The reason why I am so careless is because frankly I couldn't care less(pun intended).It's reactive:I hate these anal nerds that take words TOO seriously and get stuck in meaningless debates about words.Guess I'm in the opposite extreme of the spectrum:they're too carefull,I'm too careless.From now on I'll try to make better use of words and articulate my thoughts in a more comprehensible manner ,because I respect and enjoy talking with all you cool people!!!

I won't argue about my misuse of "sutemi".I used it meaning"in order to throw them I also throw myself" though I understand that "sutemi" has a much deeper meaning.It implies a spirit of self-sacrifice,like a mother trying to save her children not minding what happens to her.

I don't understand whats the problem with "ultralow postures" but again,it's difficult to describe in words my thoughts.In taichi form there's a movement where you change(transist?) from a very low ichimonji to a very low ihen very quickly without lifting your feet from the ground.With a little practice you can keep low postures and still be very agile and fast.I think this is very cool!

chris parker said


Thanks for the interesting insight.It was the greeks(hehe) who said "sound mind in a sound body" but of course few people understand the true meaning of this(who am I to claim genuine understanding of the concept"mind and body are one"? Its not somehing to consider intellectually)

IMHO the reason why Hatsumi is in this shape at this age has little to do with physical training and lots t do with spiritual training(I'm aware that I'm approaching lalaland here!).Us,mere mortals can never expect to be like him ,but that doesn't stop us from getting inspired and trying to live healthily,right?

What do you gyus think about the quote in my first post,the one from the Hayes/Hatsumi book?

cheers

So you don't train in ninpo?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi slowmo,

Mr Chris Parker,I have read some of your posts and find it obvious that you love your art,take it seriously and that you're not just a hobbyist.In that regard,you must have found my post naive,childish and offensive. Nevertheless,you took the time to reply and you took the effort to reply politely,for that I can only feel great respect for you.

I didn't actually find it "offensive", really. Your responce to Steve, on the other hand...

I'm 95%interested in the ninjutsu forum so I'll do my meet&greet here:I'm 25 and Greek.

Cool. As there is no indication of your location in your profile, this is exactly what Steve was asking about. Don't really see why you had to fob him off the way you did.

I trained in TKD ,THai box and GrekoRoman Wrestling for some years(well I trained in wrestling since I was 12).Although my knowledge in TMA was extremely limited I eventually became interested in arts like aikido,BBT,judo etc.The reason:being an ultranaive,ultrapeaceful gyu and ultra ignorant about MA,I thought that by utilizing locks I could end a fight without having to hit the other gyu(I hate hitting people as much as I hate people hitting me).Not only that but I thought I could submit the other gyu in a way that he won't feel he lost face and he won't feel a need to prove anything to his bodies and/or to take revenge.It's semi-arbitrary the fact that I begun BBT classes instead of some other art like aikido,jujutsu,etc.But this is not arbitrary at all:2 years ago(after attending BBT classes for 3 years) I decided that I'll dedicate all my time and energy only to ninjutsu(ie I realised I was hooked).Why was I hooked?I'm sure all you hooked gyus know why!!!

Okay, so to sum up here, you spent some time when you were younger training in primarily modern sporting systems, and through your perception of some older, or Traditional, Japanese systems, found your way to the Bujinkan. You then cross-trained for three years, and stopped the other arts two years ago to only study Bujinkan. Is this correct?

If it is, who do you train with in Greece? Are you associated with Harry's guys, or someone else?

Lets get busy:
Why do I use words like supaninjas,musha shygyo,kamaes,ninpo?The reason why I am so careless is because frankly I couldn't care less(pun intended).It's reactive:I hate these anal nerds that take words TOO seriously and get stuck in meaningless debates about words.Guess I'm in the opposite extreme of the spectrum:they're too carefull,I'm too careless.From now on I'll try to make better use of words and articulate my thoughts in a more comprehensible manner ,because I respect and enjoy talking with all you cool people!!!

Using terms like "supaninjas" comes across as fanboy language, and will lead to you not being taken seriously (in your comments or questions... you may notice that there are scant replies here, and you're posting style has a fair bit to do with that I feel. I've seen a number of very knowledgable people reading this thread, but didn't add to it... if you want them to reply seriously, treat the subject seriously). Using terms such as "musha shugyo, kamae, ninpo" themselves aren't a problem, but using them innaccurately will again lead to people who know what they are talking about not taking you seriously. If you use them properly, great. If you don't know how to, then don't. Find other words to get your point across.

Oh, and you've been here all of a day, you don't know if you enjoy talking with us yet... and if this method of posting continues, you probably won't! False flattery isn't needed.

I won't argue about my misuse of "sutemi".I used it meaning"in order to throw them I also throw myself" though I understand that "sutemi" has a much deeper meaning.It implies a spirit of self-sacrifice,like a mother trying to save her children not minding what happens to her.

Well, sutemi is made up of two characters, "suteru", meaning to abandon, and "mi", refering to the body. So sutemi refers to sacrifice, abandoning your body, and is used to refer to a grouping of throws (sutemi nage). It can imply the type of self sacrifice you are talking about here, but not that often when it comes to Ninjutsu arts. With us it is far more about the willingness to "throw your life away" in order to win, and is best exemplified through the Bujinkan's Godan test, the Genbukan's Shihan tests, each taken from kata from Togakure Ryu (and also found in Gyokko Ryu). When you were talking about "leaping up and wrapping your legs around the opponent", that is a different methodology, not sutemi nage.

I don't understand whats the problem with "ultralow postures" but again,it's difficult to describe in words my thoughts.In taichi form there's a movement where you change(transist?) from a very low ichimonji to a very low ihen very quickly without lifting your feet from the ground.With a little practice you can keep low postures and still be very agile and fast.I think this is very cool!

Uh, the main problem is that it really isn't what the art teaches, excepting in very rare specialised cases. Gichin Funakoshi once said "low stances are for beginners", and the idea of low, deep stances is that they build up the legs. Hatsumi doesn't use low stances, for very good reasons, and if you are using them, well, don't know where you got that from, because it's not Ninjutsu.

Of course, the question here is where you are getting a Taiji form from? I didn't see it listed in your arts there... and, more importantly, what does it have to do with Ninjutsu?

chris parker said


Thanks for the interesting insight.It was the greeks(hehe) who said "sound mind in a sound body" but of course few people understand the true meaning of this(who am I to claim genuine understanding of the concept"mind and body are one"? Its not somehing to consider intellectually)

Fairly simply, remove the idea that they are seperate. Each affect the other, your mind affects your body, your body affects your mind, and so on.

IMHO the reason why Hatsumi is in this shape at this age has little to do with physical training and lots t do with spiritual training(I'm aware that I'm approaching lalaland here!).Us,mere mortals can never expect to be like him ,but that doesn't stop us from getting inspired and trying to live healthily,right?

Hatsumi is a "mere mortal". And his flexibility and physical ability at his age has quite a lot to do with his physical training, however if you think that the physical is removed from the mental/spiritual training, you have missed the point of the above quote (mind and body as one). But really, Hatsumi Sensei has trained (in martial arts) for, what now, 6 or 7 decades? And a lot of that early training was very hard, physical training. If you think that his flexibility and his present shape and ability isn't to do with his physical training, then you may need to reconsider your take on what the training is. Martial arts are physical things with a spiritual growth capability, but they are physical things.

What do you gyus think about the quote in my first post,the one from the Hayes/Hatsumi book?

Okay, the quote you gave was "In Togakure training, strength is gained through flexibility". Well, whenever there is a quote, context is important.

This quote comes from page 26 of History and Traditions, ghost written by Hayes early on in the "ninja boom", at a time when the Bujinkan teachings were refered to under the umbrella title of Togakure Ryu (as Togakure Ryu has the longest list of previous heads, it is seen to be the most respected, or "most senior" of the traditions, so everything else got lumped in under that name, regardless of the actual Ryu it came from. This is like when you study Shinto Muso Ryu you will also learn Uchida Ryu, Kasumi Shinto Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Ikkatsu Ryu, and Ittatsu Ryu. Each are their own seperate traditions, but they are taught under the banner of Shinto Muso Ryu). So any reference to "Togakure Ryu, Togakure training" and such should really be read more as "Bujinkan training, or Bujinkan teachings".

The page in question is talking about junan taiso, so really I just think it is a way of emphasising that within Ninjutsu we don't look to muscular physical strength for power, as that fades with time. Instead, we seek to cutivate a physical flexibility, which can be maintained into older age, has an effect on the flexibility of the mind as well (mind and body are one), for reasons including physical performance of the techniques of the art, as well as general allround health. Honestly, it's fairly self explainatory, and the rest of the page really goes on to say all of this.

cheers

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

hi everyone.
I think that flexibility is good for having freedom of movement and if you use your full range of motion you can generate more power. but I believe both are important. you have to train for both and be well rounded.