Bruce lee vs Wong Jack Man

[Kickboxer101]

Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man: Fact, Fiction and the Birth of the Dragon | FIGHTLAND

This article was posted on facebook and I found it very interesting. It disputes a lot of things and it's stuff I've never heard before and I've heard a lot about Bruce lee. Apparently the whole him teaching non Chinese wasnt as unique as it's portrayed and other instructors were doing the same thing around the same time and the fight wasnt about that more about the fact lee was insulting other people. Also how Wong jack man couldve been basically forced into the fight.

It also says about how a lot of people were angry at lee for his showing off at ed Parkers tournament and a lot of people wanted to fight him.

I love Bruce lee but I think a lot of his story has been changed and exaggerated to make him look like a big hero make him more like his movie characters than the man he was. Undoubtedly he was a fantastic martial artist and I'm not disputing his skills but reading between the lines of stuff from what I can tell he wasnt a very nice guy and was very arrogant and full of himself. But of course I can't 100% confirm that but that is just an opinion I have formed from what I've read. If that is true about the fight not being about him teaching Chinese then I assume that was a fabricated story to make lee look like a better guy it sounds a lot more heroic saying he fought to defend his beliefs and breaking down walls for racial discrimination rather than they wanted to fight him because he was being a disrespectful punk to everyone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

From what I can tell, it all depends on whose side of the story you want to believe.

 

[kuniggety]

Anyone who has taken the time to loo into the development of TCMA in the US will run into the fact that Bruce Lee loved to spout off at the mouth. The funny thing is that WJM, while a proponent of Bak Sil Lum, wasn't much of a "fighter". One of his friends/students, Kam Yuen, was in HK training with Chiu Chuk Kai, who was much more of the "fighter". I wonder how it all would have went down if he was in town.

 

[Buka]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Bruce Lee, despite having planned to do so, but he died when I was a brown belt and that was that. But I know a lot of people who trained with Bruce, several of my instructors as wellas several of my friends, and have had lengthy conversations with them about him. These are not people who bull-s, and they are anything but star struck.

They speak of him as "brash" as opposed to arrogant, and they have always done so with a matter of fact tone, a respect and a smiling wink. As to the article, I've spoken to Ed Parker, at great lengths, many times about Bruce Lee (yes, I was a pain in the ash) Had many long conversations about Bruce first appearing at Ed's tournament. Great stories, Ed painted a slightly different picture than the writer of that article did. Call me old fashioned, but I'm going with the guy that was actually there, with the guy that brought Bruce there. And, yes, there were some folks who were a bit put off (Which Ed seamed to get a really big kick out off) But there were far more who loved it. Wasn't even close, at least as it was told to me. And I trusted Ed Parker's word completely.

I've talked with Wally Jay and his wife, Bernice, (a formidable Martial Artist in her own right) about Bruce Lee. Bruce used to visit them at their home in California all the time. Wally had a gym/dojo in the basement, Martial Artists of note would come over all the time, but when Bruce came over they would shove all the furniture in the living room to one side and rock and roll right there. Bernice showed me some pictures. Bruce and Wally, soaked in sweat, rugs shoved to the side, lamps and tables knocked over. She always referred to him as that "young Bruce Lee" and she always had a sad smile when she said it because she was quite taken by him. Said that Wally and Bruce used to wreck their poor house - and then she'd cook them supper.

I had long conversations with Joe Lewis about Bruce Lee. They trained together several times. They didn't exactly get along like pals, too much Alpha dog in both of them I suspect. But, Joe, who was as serious as a heart attack, always said Bruce was something else, especially for such a small person.

As to his reported talk (which was true) about the "classical mess", it was a different time back then. It was the Martial Arts world of fifty years ago. I'm sure he shook it up. Rocked "the establishment" so to speak. Probably not a bad thing. Who knows, just maybe it made Martial arts in America grow some.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Bruce Lee, despite having planned to do so, but he died when I was a brown belt and that was that. But I know a lot of people who trained with Bruce, several of my instructors as wellas several of my friends, and have had lengthy conversations with them about him. These are not people who bull-s, and they are anything but star struck.

They speak of him as "brash" as opposed to arrogant, and they have always done so with a matter of fact tone, a respect and a smiling wink. As to the article, I've spoken to Ed Parker, at great lengths, many times about Bruce Lee (yes, I was a pain in the ash) Had many long conversations about Bruce first appearing at Ed's tournament. Great stories, Ed painted a slightly different picture than the writer of that article did. Call me old fashioned, but I'm going with the guy that was actually there, with the guy that brought Bruce there. And, yes, there were some folks who were a bit put off (Which Ed seamed to get a really big kick out off) But there were far more who loved it. Wasn't even close, at least as it was told to me. And I trusted Ed Parker's word completely.

I've talked with Wally Jay and his wife, Bernice, (a formidable Martial Artist in her own right) about Bruce Lee. Bruce used to visit them at their home in California all the time. Wally had a gym/dojo in the basement, Martial Artists of note would come over all the time, but when Bruce came over they would shove all the furniture in the living room to one side and rock and roll right there. Bernice showed me some pictures. Bruce and Wally, soaked in sweat, rugs shoved to the side, lamps and tables knocked over. She always referred to him as that "young Bruce Lee" and she always had a sad smile when she said it because she was quite taken by him. Said that Wally and Bruce used to wreck their poor house - and then she'd cook them supper.

I had long conversations with Joe Lewis about Bruce Lee. They trained together several times. They didn't exactly get along like pals, too much Alpha dog in both of them I suspect. But, Joe, who was as serious as a heart attack, always said Bruce was something else, especially for such a small person.

As to his reported talk (which was true) about the "classical mess", it was a different time back then. It was the Martial Arts world of fifty years ago. I'm sure he shook it up. Rocked "the establishment" so to speak. Probably not a bad thing. Who knows, just maybe it made Martial arts in America grow some.

I can't say much about that but well here I'm talking more about the fight with Wong jack man and hey like I said I can't say 100% what lee was and I'd be an arrogant ignorant to even do it and hey someone with his skill probably would be a tiny bit arrogant.

As for joe lewis he's a strange one for interviews in one interview he's singing bruce lees praises in another he's said he wasn't that great a fighter and insulted the way he practiced his kicks.

Thing is though people say how Bruce lee revellutionsied things but did he really I mean yeah he's the one that /started/ cross training but when he died people didn't start doing that straight away. Kung fu became popular and martial arts in general but people didnt exactly go straight into cross training that didnt really begin until the ufc came around but of course lee was the first proper one to do it well the most famous anyway maybe some other guys did it before him but never was famous but who knows.

Now I probably sound like a Bruce lee hater with all this but I'm really not I love Bruce lee I've seen all his movies watched pretty much all the documenatries on him read a lot of books on him heck I've even got a huge Bruce lee poster on my walk and a framed picture of him but even people look up to I don't hero worship I see everyone as they are.

Actually though would be interesting has anyone on this board actually met Bruce lee properly that would be interesting to hear from.

 

[JR 137]

There's 3 sides to every story - your's, mine, and the truth. Whenever you hear such conflicting things, there's an easy conclusion to reach - the truth is most often somewhere in the middle.

Was the fight all about Lee's teaching non-Chinese people? Probably not. Was it solely about Lee insulting others? Probably not. Call me crazy, but I'm going to say it was a bit of both.

I'm not expert on Lee. No one I know ever claimed to have met him either. But I'm willing to bet he was like the few celebrities I've met, and the countless ones people I know have met and dealt with - he was probably a bit arrogant/showman/in character when a lot of people were around, and then far more of a normal guy when there were only one or two people left.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Bruce Lee, despite having planned to do so, but he died when I was a brown belt and that was that. But I know a lot of people who trained with Bruce, several of my instructors as wellas several of my friends, and have had lengthy conversations with them about him. These are not people who bull-s, and they are anything but star struck.

They speak of him as "brash" as opposed to arrogant, and they have always done so with a matter of fact tone, a respect and a smiling wink. As to the article, I've spoken to Ed Parker, at great lengths, many times about Bruce Lee (yes, I was a pain in the ash) Had many long conversations about Bruce first appearing at Ed's tournament. Great stories, Ed painted a slightly different picture than the writer of that article did. Call me old fashioned, but I'm going with the guy that was actually there, with the guy that brought Bruce there. And, yes, there were some folks who were a bit put off (Which Ed seamed to get a really big kick out off) But there were far more who loved it. Wasn't even close, at least as it was told to me. And I trusted Ed Parker's word completely.

I've talked with Wally Jay and his wife, Bernice, (a formidable Martial Artist in her own right) about Bruce Lee. Bruce used to visit them at their home in California all the time. Wally had a gym/dojo in the basement, Martial Artists of note would come over all the time, but when Bruce came over they would shove all the furniture in the living room to one side and rock and roll right there. Bernice showed me some pictures. Bruce and Wally, soaked in sweat, rugs shoved to the side, lamps and tables knocked over. She always referred to him as that "young Bruce Lee" and she always had a sad smile when she said it because she was quite taken by him. Said that Wally and Bruce used to wreck their poor house - and then she'd cook them supper.

I had long conversations with Joe Lewis about Bruce Lee. They trained together several times. They didn't exactly get along like pals, too much Alpha dog in both of them I suspect. But, Joe, who was as serious as a heart attack, always said Bruce was something else, especially for such a small person.

As to his reported talk (which was true) about the "classical mess", it was a different time back then. It was the Martial Arts world of fifty years ago. I'm sure he shook it up. Rocked "the establishment" so to speak. Probably not a bad thing. Who knows, just maybe it made Martial arts in America grow some.

I'd also like to know what ed Parkers actual thoughts were on lees actual ability he's not a guy who was interviewed a lot about him for some reason and ed Parkers Realtionship with him is often glossed over in the media as more of a footnote. People say people were so impressed with his Kung fu because it bad never been seen before but ed Parker trained in Chinese kenpo so he had a background in Asian martial arts and I'm sure a guy like him would do his research on the traditional styles I mean volume 1 of infinite insights is mainly about the history of martial arts. I'd love to know what his actual opinions were of him and his skills

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like I said, and I will bother this thread no more....it all depends on who you what to believe, but I will add it also depends on what you "want" to believe...because the majority of the people that actually know are dead.

 

[Flying Crane]

One of my teachers was a student of Sifu Wong. He described him as very low-key and avoided the limelight, and an exceptional martial artist.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Like I said, and I will bother this thread no more....it all depends on who you what to believe, but I will add it also depends on what you "want" to believe...because the majority of the people that actually know are dead.

Personally I don't care about the result when I say that I mean if lee had lost it wouldn't change my opinion on him and I wouldn't say anything against him for it it's just something interesting to discuss and to hear the opinions about. I mean the only ones who've gone on record are lees corner and of course they'll say he easily won but one thing that I do believe is a possibility not saying it's true but he could've lost or at least taken a beating and that's why he started hating on traditional martial arts and really training so hard because that's the kind of thing you see a guy loses then they train harder to get better very rarely a guy wins and trains harder because of it. Of course it could also be stated that lee was a perfectionist and didnt like how he performed but at the end if the day we'll never really know it's a shame It was a behind closed door fight though

 

[marques]

The article is quite long (so I didn't read it).
But I read somewhere that Bruce loses that fight. And Wong never commented that fight. Sadly, any recording of that 'historic' moment...

 

[Kickboxer101]

The article is quite long (so I didn't read it).
But I read somewhere that Bruce loses that fight. And Wong never commented that fight. Sadly, any recording of that 'historic' moment...

I doubt you'd have read that anywhere he lost it its widely reported by everyone that he won it

 

[marques]

I doubt you'd have read that anywhere he lost it is widely reported by everyone that he won it

I don not remember the source (perhaps TV...). And will not search. If anyone here has some information about, thanks in advance.

 

[kuniggety]

I doubt you'd have read that anywhere he lost it its widely reported by everyone that he won it

Widely reported by Bruce Lee. By most accounts, WJM thought he was showing up to a sparring match and next thing he knew Bruce Lee was throwing eye gouges at him. WJM was a private humble man though and never really talked about the fight after. Regardless of who won, Bruce Lee went back to the drawing board about the way he trained after that fight. I think, in the end, it was a humbling experience for both men.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Widely reported by Bruce Lee. By most accounts, WJM thought he was showing up to a sparring match and next thing he knew Bruce Lee was throwing eye gouges at him. WJM was a private humble man though and never really talked about the fight after. Regardless of who won, Bruce Lee went back to the drawing board about the way he trained after that fight. I think, in the end, it was a humbling experience for both men.

Sure who knows what happened maybe it was meant to be a sparring match maybe it was meant to be a fight there's hundreds of different versions that are reported but all Im saying is all the accounts are that he won I haven't seen anyone go on record and say he lost which is what I was responding to and by the way genuine did lee ever talk about the fight himself in his own words I've only ever heard the account through other people like his wife etc

 

[kuniggety]

Sure who knows what happened maybe it was meant to be a sparring match maybe it was meant to be a fight there's hundreds of different versions that are reported but all Im saying is all the accounts are that he won I haven't seen anyone go on record and say he lost which is what I was responding to and by the way genuine did lee ever talk about the fight himself in his own words I've only ever heard the account through other people like his wife etc

Agreed. I'd have to do my own research again but yeah, I think the biggest proponent of any accounts of the fight were from Bruce Lee's wife.

 

[wingchun100]

I'd also like to know what ed Parkers actual thoughts were on lees actual ability he's not a guy who was interviewed a lot about him for some reason and ed Parkers Realtionship with him is often glossed over in the media as more of a footnote. People say people were so impressed with his Kung fu because it bad never been seen before but ed Parker trained in Chinese kenpo so he had a background in Asian martial arts and I'm sure a guy like him would do his research on the traditional styles I mean volume 1 of infinite insights is mainly about the history of martial arts. I'd love to know what his actual opinions were of him and his skills

In the documentary CURSE OF THE DRAGON, Ed Parker Jr. said, "My dad would often say that, pound for pound, he (Bruce Lee) was the best martial artist he'd ever seen."

 

[wingchun100]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Bruce Lee, despite having planned to do so, but he died when I was a brown belt and that was that. But I know a lot of people who trained with Bruce, several of my instructors as wellas several of my friends, and have had lengthy conversations with them about him. These are not people who bull-s, and they are anything but star struck.

They speak of him as "brash" as opposed to arrogant, and they have always done so with a matter of fact tone, a respect and a smiling wink. As to the article, I've spoken to Ed Parker, at great lengths, many times about Bruce Lee (yes, I was a pain in the ash) Had many long conversations about Bruce first appearing at Ed's tournament. Great stories, Ed painted a slightly different picture than the writer of that article did. Call me old fashioned, but I'm going with the guy that was actually there, with the guy that brought Bruce there. And, yes, there were some folks who were a bit put off (Which Ed seamed to get a really big kick out off) But there were far more who loved it. Wasn't even close, at least as it was told to me. And I trusted Ed Parker's word completely.

I've talked with Wally Jay and his wife, Bernice, (a formidable Martial Artist in her own right) about Bruce Lee. Bruce used to visit them at their home in California all the time. Wally had a gym/dojo in the basement, Martial Artists of note would come over all the time, but when Bruce came over they would shove all the furniture in the living room to one side and rock and roll right there. Bernice showed me some pictures. Bruce and Wally, soaked in sweat, rugs shoved to the side, lamps and tables knocked over. She always referred to him as that "young Bruce Lee" and she always had a sad smile when she said it because she was quite taken by him. Said that Wally and Bruce used to wreck their poor house - and then she'd cook them supper.

I had long conversations with Joe Lewis about Bruce Lee. They trained together several times. They didn't exactly get along like pals, too much Alpha dog in both of them I suspect. But, Joe, who was as serious as a heart attack, always said Bruce was something else, especially for such a small person.

As to his reported talk (which was true) about the "classical mess", it was a different time back then. It was the Martial Arts world of fifty years ago. I'm sure he shook it up. Rocked "the establishment" so to speak. Probably not a bad thing. Who knows, just maybe it made Martial arts in America grow some.

This was a great reply. Thanks for posting.

 

[punisher73]

I'd also like to know what ed Parkers actual thoughts were on lees actual ability he's not a guy who was interviewed a lot about him for some reason and ed Parkers Realtionship with him is often glossed over in the media as more of a footnote. People say people were so impressed with his Kung fu because it bad never been seen before but ed Parker trained in Chinese kenpo so he had a background in Asian martial arts and I'm sure a guy like him would do his research on the traditional styles I mean volume 1 of infinite insights is mainly about the history of martial arts. I'd love to know what his actual opinions were of him and his skills

Dr. Chapel has gone on record several times stating the Ed Parker thought that Bruce Lee was one of the most gifted ATHLETES he ever met. But, that his knowledge of the arts was not very deep.

 

[punisher73]

https://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oak...476835557&sr=1-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland

Very good book. A couple of points that it highlights are that there were VERY few people actually there. It was supposed to be a private thing and agreed that it wouldn't be discussed. BL then started claiming he trashed WJM. Witnesses ALL state that WJM did not look any worse for wear the next day. WJM issued a public challenge to BL to fight in public if he beat him so bad. BL never responded, which also contradicts all those who state BL never backed down from a challenge/fight.

Even before reading this, the BL version sounded "doctored". It was very established that non-chinese were being taught prior to BL. BL throws away his entire approach from a fight he totally dominated. I think it was much closer or not as big a deal as BL tried to make it sound like.