Bruce Lee. Master or Not?

[D.Cobb]

Hey guys,I know more about Bruce Lee as my instructors insructor{Dan Inosanto} than as a movie star,and I know that most of the stuff people quote from Bruces writings are taken out of context because most of it was published from notes and scraps found in the garage after his death.Bruce nevercalled himself a master, he said no one has that right until they close the box and bury you.Instead of the endless debate why doesnt everybody just respect the fact that if it wasnt for Bruce Lee NONE of you would be mixing arts,infact if it wasnt for Bruce Lee there would be no such thing as mixed martial arts.Even if you dont study JKD you have to admit the whole idea of going outside of your system was Bruce Lees legacy.I trained with many of the people that had their lives enriched by training with Bruce and regardless of if he never won a tournament or BLA BLA BLA what he did in the 60s was unheard of.If it wasnt for Dan Inosanto making Thai Boxing and Kali so popular in the 70s and 80s everybody would still be doing the same thing.Bruce and then Inosanto raised the publics consiousness about a lot of arts and crosstraining in general,Barry www.combatartsusa.com

And truth be told, if it weren't for Dan Inosanto, JKD would not be so popular. My opinion is that Dan Inosanto is the one that should receive the kudos. BL made movies and coined a name for eclectic fighting principles JKD.

DI turned the name into a system and popularised the guy who taught him the principles.

--Dave

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Of course he had JKD skill, he invented it. He only had beginner skill in WC.
His biggest skill was self promotion.

--Dave

Ok, was it self promotion that was unjustified? I dont believe it was? I did not realise he had promoted himself to head of his JKD system?

Man, I have a life, sometimes I think I've got too much to do, I dont actually have time for anything else. So dont tell me to get a life. I admit your view is justified in what you say I was merely quoting that you get a lot of people who just type the threads saying
"He's just an actor, he wasnt a real fighter".

Regards

 

[Corporal Hicks]

And truth be told, if it weren't for Dan Inosanto, JKD would not be so popular. My opinion is that Dan Inosanto is the one that should receive the kudos. BL made movies and coined a name for eclectic fighting principles JKD.

DI turned the name into a system and popularised the guy who taught him the principles.

--Dave

Is JKD meant to be a system? I thought it was a personal concept? Popularity isnt a value in creating something in Martial Art. I think that DI is a great guy sure and I'm going to a seminar to train with him soon. But the ideas have to come from a creator, and that creator was BL therefore, without BL, DI probably wouldnt have made it big! Or am I wrong?

Regards

 

[Corporal Hicks]

You know I've just realised that I've got a negative point for writing on this thread on the basis that I have an inappropiate signature? Is that really for somebody to decide from apart from the mods? If It was inappropiate then I'm sure the mods would quote me?

If it is inappropiate why dont you tell me who you are who gave me a negative? If so why dont you tell me instead of giving me a negative?

The signature is from the film aliens as is my sign in name is that wrong as well?

 

[D.Cobb]

Ok, was it self promotion that was unjustified? I dont believe it was? I did not realise he had promoted himself to head of his JKD system?

Sorry, you got me wrong on that one. I meant his skill was in advertising himself or marketing himself. I didn't mean rank promotion.

Man, I have a life, sometimes I think I've got too much to do, I dont actually have time for anything else. So dont tell me to get a life. I admit your view is justified in what you say I was merely quoting that you get a lot of people who just type the threads saying

Yeah, I know what you mean I hate it when Life takes up so much of my time that I can't get anything else done...

"He's just an actor, he wasnt a real fighter".

I didn't say he couldn't fight, I said we have no tangible evidence that he could. Also, being a good fighter is not the same as being a good martial artist.

Regards

Back atcha!

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Is JKD meant to be a system? I thought it was a personal concept? Popularity isnt a value in creating something in Martial Art. I think that DI is a great guy sure and I'm going to a seminar to train with him soon. But the ideas have to come from a creator, and that creator was BL therefore, without BL, DI probably wouldnt have made it big! Or am I wrong?

Regards

I don't get it... Is it a system or a personal concept?
If it's a system then you can teach it and certify people to different levels in it. But, if it's a personal concept, then all you can do is share it. And anyone that sees merit in it, can market a thought as being from that same concept. Even if the similarity is only in their perception of the concept.

I know what I'm trying to say here, but I don't think it's coming out quite right in print.

--Dave

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I don't get it... Is it a system or a personal concept?
If it's a system then you can teach it and certify people to different levels in it. But, if it's a personal concept, then all you can do is share it. And anyone that sees merit in it, can market a thought as being from that same concept. Even if the similarity is only in their perception of the concept.

I know what I'm trying to say here, but I don't think it's coming out quite right in print.

--Dave

Lol ,join the club !

I've been to college, gone to work and now to discuss this, errgh......... bed looks more appealing!

Regards

 

[47MartialMan]

But the time of training under one master is no relation to a verstile martial artists that has a knack for learning and adapting. As far as learning a "complete" system, I think this is a false endeavor.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I think what Sin was getting at was that by dying at a young age rather than living for many years, Bruce was demonstrating that he did not truly understand himself.

A true master understands their strengths and their weaknesses. What is good for them and what they should avoid. Bruce, although physically very talented, was still immature in the sense that he thought he could do anything and it would not hurt him. Youthful invulnerability if you will. True masters tend to live longer because they exercise this discretion and know what is good and not good for them. Car accidents, combat, and disease don't count because you can't really control them. You can control what you put in your mouth.

Fair enough, I suppose...except for the fact that he'd suffered a seizure some time before the Equagesic ingestion that was totally unrelated to the drug. It is quite possible that he died for some other reason. Lee took ONE tablet, one eighth the maximum daily dose. Equagesic was prescribed for children as young as twelve.

People don't die from that dose of Equagesic. Lee didn't either.

Equagesic is a combination of aspirin and meprobamate. The latter, marketed in the U.S. as "Miltown" is scheduled a Class II drug. Fifty tons of it a year are distributed nationwide per year.

http://www.dea.gov/pubs/abuse/6-depress.htm

I touched briefly on the issue of substance abuse and mastery status. Yip Man was an opium addict, and yet considered a master of Wing Chun. Many of the Korean masters around here abuse alcohol and tobacco, and it is accepted.

I saw a wonderful piece by comedian Lewis Black where he was criticizing the recent Congressional hullabaloo over steroids. He talked about how in his day the greats-Micky Mantle, Babe Ruth-- were drunks...not steroid abusers. They used drugs that they had to overcome, versus drugs that enhanced their athleticism. It was a wonderfully ironic piece that pointed out they hypocrisy of our age and the ridiculous lengths we go to posture morally.

Some of your icons might have feet of clay, folks. Your revered master someday might be popped for drunk driving. He might be beating or raping his wife behind closed doors for all you know. He might be--regardless of his skills and his perceived status in his community--morally bankrupt. Yet all that aside his skill levels might be of a level rarely seen. A master? I would say so...even if he were a loathesome son of a b**tch.

But then, some of you will insist the master have a moral code--clearly written, no doubt--and of course your masters will ostensibly follow this with integrity and NEVER (gasp!) stray from the path.

Personally I'm willing to accept a man for his failings and yet accept his achievements. Diogenes carried a lamp, supposedly so he could light his way in his search for an honest man. As a cynic he knew he wouldn't find such a person. The perfectly honest man, the perfectly moral man, doesn't exist...even if he's sportin' a black belt.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Danjo]

Fair enough, I suppose...except for the fact that he'd suffered a seizure some time before the Equagesic ingestion that was totally unrelated to the drug. It is quite possible that he died for some other reason. Lee took ONE tablet, one eighth the maximum daily dose. Equagesic was prescribed for children as young as twelve.

People don't die from that dose of Equagesic. Lee didn't either.

Equagesic is a combination of aspirin and meprobamate. The latter, marketed in the U.S. as "Miltown" is scheduled a Class II drug. Fifty tons of it a year are distributed nationwide per year.

http://www.dea.gov/pubs/abuse/6-depress.htm

I touched briefly on the issue of substance abuse and mastery status. Yip Man was an opium addict, and yet considered a master of Wing Chun. Many of the Korean masters around here abuse alcohol and tobacco, and it is accepted.

I saw a wonderful piece by comedian Lewis Black where he was criticizing the recent Congressional hullabaloo over steroids. He talked about how in his day the greats-Micky Mantle, Babe Ruth-- were drunks...not steroid abusers. They used drugs that they had to overcome, versus drugs that enhanced their athleticism. It was a wonderfully ironic piece that pointed out they hypocrisy of our age and the ridiculous lengths we go to posture morally.

Some of your icons might have feet of clay, folks. Your revered master someday might be popped for drunk driving. He might be beating or raping his wife behind closed doors for all you know. He might be--regardless of his skills and his perceived status in his community--morally bankrupt. Yet all that aside his skill levels might be of a level rarely seen. A master? I would say so...even if he were a loathesome son of a b**tch.

But then, some of you will insist the master have a moral code--clearly written, no doubt--and of course your masters will ostensibly follow this with integrity and NEVER (gasp!) stray from the path.

Personally I'm willing to accept a man for his failings and yet accept his achievements. Diogenes carried a lamp, supposedly so he could light his way in his search for an honest man. As a cynic he knew he wouldn't find such a person. The perfectly honest man, the perfectly moral man, doesn't exist...even if he's sportin' a black belt.


Regards,


Steve

Steve, I agree completely. There are a lot more Masters out there that have done and are doing things that, if they came to light, would shock and surprise their followers. Often times all that is needed is a little research to find these things out. One has to have the ability to separate the men from their talent and ability.

 

[Jerry]

What makes a master?

How about:

1. furnish documentary proof satisfactory to a Board of having completed at least one year of experience as the holder of a Journeyman license and having been actively engaged in, or working at the business of, teaching and studying martial arts.

2. furnish documentary proof satisfactory to a Board of having successfully completed a Board-approved 150-hour Master's Course conducted by a college/university, public vocational school, private occupational school licensed by the Department of Education or an organization for its employees or members within ten years of the date of application for a Class A (Master Martial Artist) license; and

3. obtain a passing score of at least 70% on the Board's written licensure examination.

--------------------------

Of course, Journeyman is the hard one, requiring 8000 hours over a period of no less than four years within the previous 10; and 600 hours of classtime.

 

[Rook]

How about:

1. furnish documentary proof satisfactory to a Board of having completed at least one year of experience as the holder of a Journeyman license and having been actively engaged in, or working at the business of, teaching and studying martial arts.

2. furnish documentary proof satisfactory to a Board of having successfully completed a Board-approved 150-hour Master's Course conducted by a college/university, public vocational school, private occupational school licensed by the Department of Education or an organization for its employees or members within ten years of the date of application for a Class A (Master Martial Artist) license; and

3. obtain a passing score of at least 70% on the Board's written licensure examination.

--------------------------

Of course, Journeyman is the hard one, requiring 8000 hours over a period of no less than four years within the previous 10; and 600 hours of classtime.

Respectfully, this is utter bullcrap. These organizations exist only to leech money off people and have absolutely nothing at all to do with martial skill of any kind.

I don't see how Bruce Lee isn't considered a master. Look up Takeda and read about all his behavior - he is often considered one of the greatest masters of the martial arts.

Most of the modern American conception of masters as wise, serene old men seem to be taken from the movies and have little relationship if any to the historical behavior of the men we have regarded as masters.

I don't think anyone should question Bruce's skill either. At 33, he came further faster than perhaps any other unarmed fighter in history. He was always at the very cutting edge of sport training, for instance using pylometrics before the US Olympic track team did (he was probably one of the first dozen people outside the Soviet Union to do pylometrics). He was inhumanly fast, very, very technically skilled, extremely intellegent and analytical and clearly could fight very well.

The reputation he held among the other greats of his era should vindicate him of any slurs about his ability. Chuck Norris has called Lee a better fighter repeatedly. Gene LeBell said something to the effect that he was the best student of the martial arts he had seen. His mutual exchange of knowledge with Ed Parker deeply impressed Parker and led him to change a substantial amount of the Kenpo curriculum - Inosanto I believe said that everytime Parker and Lee met Parker would change a bunch of stuff. Long before Lee was famous, or for that matter at his fastest, Jhoon Rhee had sparred with him and said that Lee was so fast that he couldn't even touch Lee even after Lee purposely slowed down a bit - the only contact with Lee's feet lightly kicking him while he tried to go full contact.

When Lee went back to Hong Kong to film his movies, he met up with Yip Man, who clearly did not think of Lee as unskilled. Someone should dig up some of Yip Man's quotes about Lee; I don't remember their content but they were quite flattering. Wong Shun Leung (who was definately among the top 2 or 3 of Yip Man's personal students and was the defacto challenge match represtative for challenges made to Yip Man's person) felt that Bruce Lee had impressive Wing Chung even when he came back to Hong Kong although he did not agree with any of Bruce's other innovations, believing Wing Chung to be a perfect system.

As a point of technical skill, Lee clearly was at the top of his game.

Though he never completed Wing Chung (only getting down about one third of the syllabus), every Wing Chung leader I have heard commenting on him said that he was among the very best at the parts he knew.

As for the challenge match, it was against a man named Wong Jack-mon who was a Tai Chi expert recognized in San Francisco as a grandmaster at 32 (his age when he fought Lee). He engaged Lee head to head for less than ten seconds before he took off running - and it took Lee almost two minutes to catch him. When he did, Lee brought him to the ground with a western wrestling take down and proceeded to chain punch him for a few seconds, then stopped and asked if Wong wanted to give up, which he did. Lee said later that he should have been able to knock out Wong within the 10 seconds they were fighting head to head and shouldn't have had to chase him - this convinced him that rather than supplementing his Wing Chung with other stuff, it would be better to start a whole new system, seeking out good stuff wherever he could find it.

Lee was in tons of street fights. The reason he left Hong Kong in the first place is that he had beaten a triad leader into the hospital and the police told him to leave before the traid tried to take revenge on him. He was in numerous fights, both in the street, because he had rubbed a number of gangs the wrong way, and in official challenge matches against various martial arts styles. When he got to Seattle, he fought with people from the Edison technical college, several of whom later became his students. In Oakland, he had a "open door to challenges" and fought more than a few against various kung fu people who thought Wong's fight was not good enough. He also had some number of non-chinese people who decided to test their ability. He didn't lose any of them. There also is a story somewhere from a girl he was walking home in Oakland when he beat the living daylights out of three guys that tried to jump them with lead pipes.

Back in Hong Kong, he fought several fights against people who wanted to fight the big TV star (Green Hornet). On the set, he fought at least four different times against extras and stunt men who thought he was fake; these are well documented because there were many witnesses. At least once on the set he had a fight with a gang leader who was trying to extort protection money from the film crews. On the way back from lunch during filming he got in a fight with several members of a construction crew who were mocking him as he walked past.

There are surely many more fights and more detailed accounts of each of them out there if you look hard enough.

 

[monkey]

In my time of the shaolin temple we had student-monk-abott-preist-master&high master.Now if you invent you art & defeat many grandmasters you are a tilt you defeated.Much like the gun slingers in old west.Whos the fastest & multi challanges.Was Bruce a founder yes & inovator but he had long way to evolve & that with standing the test of time is the key.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I've read a very interesting book recently which bought up something I hadn't thought of. Robert W Smiths Martial Musings talks a little about Bruce Lee and the point he makes that is most interesting to me is that Bruce Lee started with Yip Man at around 13 years of age and left for America around 18 years of age. That doesn't give him a great deal of time training in the martial arts. Now I'm not saying he couldn't fight because I know he had a lot of street fights but I know guys who can fight and have never done martial arts. What accreditation did he have and why is he held in such high esteem. Is it because of the movies or is it because of something else? I've trained in the martial arts under an instructor for longer than he did. What makes a master? I'm just asking the question for interests sake. I've recently left my school because my 'master' was not such a master after all.
Anyway have a super day guys.

Cheers
Sammy

Bruce Lee was a brilliant martial arts innovator. The word master has lost its meaning because it is givin to the unworthy.

 

[Robert Lee]

Bruce did not call his self a master in fact he shyed away from the word. He did though review Wht he saw as a flaw in the methods of modern day M/A training. Which exposed that staying to long in the past with out testing what you learned is it useable And that several M/A arts have added and add over time to have such a large training area. most often those tools can never be used. He did not give new method he just improved and cut away from what is already out there and a different way of obtaining it. Jkd yes its defently a M/A yes Bruce did become a founder of JKD will it live on can it be tested can it meet the needs of others All yes. So sigung Lee would meet the idea of what some would call master. But he would frown on the name.