Parker Kenpo- Now & Then

[MJS]

I'm starting this thread to discuss differences in the way techniques, classes, kata, etc. were taught in the early years, compared to today. We have a number of people who trained with Mr. Parker for quite a long time, so I'd like to hear what the training was like.

Additionally, in many threads, we hear some people say that there was/is no grappling/ground fighting in Kenpo, and we have others that state that it is in there. For those that are stating it is there, I'd like to hear a detailed breakdown of how Mr. Parker addressed this area.

Mike

 

[IWishToLearn]

Tag to watch thread.

 

[michaeledward]

I am probably way too new to this to have much credibility on the subject. But, a few weeks back, I did buy a copy of Mr. Parker's first book off of ebay - Kenpo Karate.

The book first talks about the exercises to condition the body and to harden the body weapons (something we don't really do at our studio). Then it has a collection of techniques.

It is clear to see the genesis of American Kenpo as I understand it within this book. But it is also clear to see the evolution of the material over the past 45 years (or should we say Parker's 30 years - or mabye the 10 or 15 years between the book and when the IKKA stuff was structured).

One example - there is no talk of 'blocks' in the book, but rather, one executes an 'inward strike' to intercept an incoming punch.

Another example - the 'point of origin' idea seems to be abscent from the book. The description of that inward strike is a circular motion.


And, while the book quite probably does not contain all of the information taught on the mat, in those days, these differences are glaring to my eye.

 

[Carol]

Were weapons (of any kind) part of early Parker Kenpo?

There is the creed "I come to you with only Karate - empty hands. I have no weapons..."

...but then there are exercises such as the Staff Set that seem a bit...discongruous with the creed. I'm just curious.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am probably way too new to this to have much credibility on the subject. But, a few weeks back, I did buy a copy of Mr. Parker's first book off of ebay - Kenpo Karate.

The book first talks about the exercises to condition the body and to harden the body weapons (something we don't really do at our studio). Then it has a collection of techniques.

It is clear to see the genesis of American Kenpo as I understand it within this book. But it is also clear to see the evolution of the material over the past 45 years (or should we say Parker's 30 years - or mabye the 10 or 15 years between the book and when the IKKA stuff was structured).

One example - there is no talk of 'blocks' in the book, but rather, one executes an 'inward strike' to intercept an incoming punch.

Another example - the 'point of origin' idea seems to be abscent from the book. The description of that inward strike is a circular motion.


And, while the book quite probably does not contain all of the information taught on the mat, in those days, these differences are glaring to my eye.

There is a such thing as circular point of origin. It is not always linear.

 

[Doc]

Were weapons (of any kind) part of early Parker Kenpo?

There is the creed "I come to you with only Karate - empty hands. I have no weapons..."

...but then there are exercises such as the Staff Set that seem a bit...discongruous with the creed. I'm just curious.

Mr. Parker was very clear that his interpretation of Kenpo would leave traditional weapons of traditonal arts behind. Personal everyday self-defense was, and continued to be his primary goal.

Although he included slef-defense techniques for weapons like guns, knives, and bludgeons, he felt that "good guys" had no need of lessons to learn how to attack or even defend themselves WITH these weapons.

He viewed them as "offensive tools" for the "bad guys" that would not be readily available to the average person in the American Culture as a defense tool. Just as he had no sword defenses as some traditional arts do, he felt these things would be out of place in the real world of everyday self-defense in the American Culture.

Mr. Parker initially allowed the staff as the only weapon taught in the beginning of his system. He reasoned that a staff was an everyday self-defense tool in the form of a broom and its handle, that could be utilized as a self-defense tool.

When Mr. Parker created the International Karate Championships in 1964, he had no idea that it, in conjunction with the coming in-progress commercial system, would cause him to introduce weapons. The combination of the two made it good business sense to introduce such material.

First, as the tournament evolved, it expanded the forms and kata divisions to include "weapons and showmanship divisions." Initially Kenpo had to compete in either what was called the "hard" Japanese/Okinawan divisions, or the "soft" of the Chinese/Filipino/Indonesian divisions.

Parker received complaints because Kenpo had a difficult time fitting in, (read winning) in either. They were not hard enough to satisfy the Japanese criterior, nor soft enough for the Chinese. So, Parker created a "Medium Division," careful to not label it "Kenpo" for fear of an implied bias. Competitors were openly invited to compete in whatever division they felt comfortable, or encouraged to compete in all of them if they desired. I wrote specific rules for judging each of the forms divisions, and style was not to be considered an issue, only the performance criterior. This opened all of the divisions to all competitors, and many competed across style lines successfully.

The natural progression from there was to create a "Traditional Weapons Division" for both the "Hard," and "Soft" competitor divisions. However Kenpo had no weapons. The demand from Kenpo Students to have weapons to expand their competition chioces drove Parker to created "Club," and "Knife" Sets, and even a brief foray into, the very popular at the time, "Nunchaku."

Later we added "Music or Showmanship Divisions" that also attracted many competitors from all styles. The result here was that many were beginning to perform "demo-like" routines, with well choreographed fights with multiple attackers set to music. The arena was filled with competitors and huge "boom boxes."

The division began to look like a casting call for a Bruce Lee T.V show or movie. Martial artists decided to become actors, and showcase themselves, much as Bruce Lee had done at the tournament. Oddly enough the competitors began to act like a bunch of actors as well, demanding use of the arena sound system and exotic props for their "act." Many with well rehersed routines, became angry when they couldn't perform in multiple divisions with their music blaring through the arena sound system.

But it was these Rountines that led Mr. Parker to ask me to create a division to showcase Kenpo in a similar manner. At his request I created the "Self-defense Division," and wrote the rules for insertion into the "IKC Rule Book."

These weapons carried over to the commercial studios and gave students what they wanted. Even though they were contrary to Mr. Parker's personal philosophy in America, they were very lucrative in the business world of commercial studios and tournaments. Parker was a martial arts genius - with five kids and a wife and several mortgages, and he had to become as good a businessman.

 

[Doc]

There is a such thing as circular point of origin. It is not always linear.

As obvious as that may be to you and I, for some, the interpretation of "Point of Origin" in the commercial system means to expedite movement in a linear or straight line.

Of course what ever the movement, linear or circular, it begins somewhere. Where ever it begins, whatever its trajectory, where it starts is the "Point of Origin."

 

[Carol]

Wow, that is a lot of info.

Thanks so much sir. :asian:

 

[Doc]

I am probably way too new to this to have much credibility on the subject. But, a few weeks back, I did buy a copy of Mr. Parker's first book off of ebay - Kenpo Karate.

The book first talks about the exercises to condition the body and to harden the body weapons ...

This shows the clear cultural influence of the Japanese and Okinawan arts that was prevalent in the islands, when Parker first came to the mainland. This changed almost immediately, even as his first book was being released. Two years later he was all Chinese, and published his second book, Secrets of Chinese Karate" in 1963, and left the other influences altogether.

It is clear to see the genesis of American Kenpo as I understand it within this book. But it is also clear to see the evolution of the material over the past 45 years (or should we say Parker's 30 years - or mabye the 10 or 15 years between the book and when the IKKA stuff was structured).

Parker began compiling information for his commercial system in the mid-late sixties to about seventy-one. Than he began the process of organization in between traveling seminars, and the promotion of the IKC Tournament. Finally putting together "Big Red," and watching his commercial art grow, he had a premonition of his own impending death, and he hurriedly put together the Five Volume Infinite Insights.

One example - there is no talk of 'blocks' in the book, but rather, one executes an 'inward strike' to intercept an incoming punch.

A philosophy he never changed. Anyone who had a punch blocked by him in a demo will tell you that.

Another example - the 'point of origin' idea seems to be abscent from the book. The description of that inward strike is a circular motion.

You are partially correct. As Mr. Hawkins explains below, this is a misunderstanding of most teachers passed on to their students. oddly enough the basic idea of circular blocks in the 1961 book are correct, and the linear version that dominates the commercial arts is actually incorrect. Most view it as an 'evolved' version of the block, but in actuality, it was Parker's personal "shorthand." However, without the foundational material of circular execution extended over time, "shorthand" is mostly least effectve.

In the old days mat work was a part of the less than strict or extensive curriculum. Most began trainng by learning "breakfalls" as in juijitsu, aiki-do. or ju-do. Most techniques ended with a takedown. Even if the technique did not call for a takedown, if the technique was a strike that was supposed to knock you out, you were expected in training to "breakfall" to the floor as if knocked out or down.

As Parker moved toward the commercial, this material began to be ommitted for the same reasons there are not a lot of the grappling schools around, compared to other schools. This type of training is not suited for most. Middle-Aged Americans, in general, don't want to be thrown to the ground or fall. It also raised the level of potential injuries.

So Parker marketed a form of Stand-up Chinese-American Boxing emphasizing simple self-defense moves, like stomping on the feet, fingers pokes to the eyes, and groin kicks. This appealed to his American customers, who for the mpost part, were not pro-athletes, and had no desire to be pro-athletes.

Much like the Arthur Murray Dance Studio Business Plan it is based upon, most just wanted to not make a fool of themselves if they had to dance. Nobody thought taking lessons would make them professional dances. "Quick & Easy Ultimate Self-Defense" was the market, and he rewarded students of all ages with belts and ranks.

Old school training was very rigorous and hard. Most students were adult men with no women or children in sight. Military, athletes, bouncers, policemen, etc. The Average time to black belt was bout a year, and there were no colored belts. If a woman stood in the door, she like the male faint of heart would never have walked through the door.

Good training, but bad for business.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Dammit, Doc!

I had to sit on judging panels for the Internationals, watching endless streams of kenpoist-actors go through their 80's era musical routines with the bad haircuts, and all. If I had to hear and see one more routine put to C&C Music Factory, Eye of the Tiger, or Theme from Rocky I was gonna puke.

Self-Defense...migod. So that was your doing, eh? I still have some of those old rule-books around somewhere with the judging criteria...now that I know the author, I'm gonna have to have you autograph it. 15 year old girls taking on 15 guys with kenpo techniques done with the robotic overacting flair of Tae Kwon Do musical kata, adding silliness for effect such as ripping taped ping-pong balls from the groins of their attackers. I could never see that again, and be perfectly happy. The last time I entered a tourney was to demo an upcoming trend in Self-Defense, and prove a point. I squared off against my uke, shot under his punch, pulled him down, mounted him, whapped him once or twice, turned him over, and placed him in a choke. The Gracies hadn't been "out" long enough for very many people to recognize it yet, so most of the panel and bystanders -- saturated by big glaring SD tech routines with multiple assailants and loads of flash and derring-do -- stared in bewilderment trying to figure out what I thought I was doing, to comments from the lines like "he's just sitting on the guy hitting him...that's not fighting." I did it slow speed, then medium speed, then combat speed. Bowed out, and left the tournament. Never been back to one since. That silly Self-defense demo reflected an upcoming trend called MMA, as seen in the UFC and other competitions. It was, I'd bet a hundy on it, the first West Coast presentation of BJJ/MMA in an open karate tournament...now they got divisions for that sort of thing. I wonder what would happen if I did it now? (but wait...kenpo guys don't do the floor)

Old-world breakfalls...You know, I remember drilling breakfalls and slapouts and kicks from the ground for a half-hour before moving on to the rest of class. I actually kind of liked it (aside from the pre-fatigue part before getting to techniques). Not a big fan of it now; I'm stiff.

Be good,

Dave

 

[MJS]

Ahh..some great replies!! Its always great to hear some good history.

In another thread, this comment was made, to which this reply was given. Now, we all know that this subject has been talked about countless times. It takes place here, and its taking place right now on the KN. Maybe I'm just missing the replies, I don't know, but I don't think I've seen a clear explaination of what the groundwork consisted of back in the day.

We all know that Clyde and a number of others speak of it being there. We all know that people crosstrain for their own reasons. I just think that a solid answer may prevent questions like this from constantly being asked. Not that its wrong to ask a question, after all, thats how we learn right?

Of course, the goal of a stand up fighter is to not roll around for 20min looking for a submission, but to escape and get back to our feet. Perhaps its missing from 'my' Kenpo, hense the reason I crosstrain. I get the impression though, that it wasn't missing from other people, so thats what I'd like to hear.

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

A lot of guys were doing a lot of different stuff, even way back when. In the 70's, guys were getting out of the service, and starting kenpo clubs. Each dude would have specialties they picked up either in or after the service, or sometimes before (boxing, wrestling, judo, etc.).

Their kenpo would wear that flavor, and they would accentuate parts of the system that complemented their interests, while downplaying ones that didn't. A golden gloves vet would downplay the ground ops, and stress adjunct boxing material, while an NCAA college wrestler who joined the judo club while stationed at Okinawa would come back and stress an adjunct skill set of floor fighting and throws. Take another guy stationed in Korea, and now you have kenpo with a TKD aftertaste; you're gonna get heel-kicked sparring, which back then, not many people outside the Korean arts had seen them.

For addicts who knew who did what (because you got boxed or judo thrown at a tournament by one of their guys), you went with who was stressing what you wanted to know. Kind of like present days...want phillipino knife-flavored kenpo? Find a Huk school. And so on. It was just on more of a local level, since Southern California had so many kenpo guys in it from diverse backgrounds. Mr. Parker, I believe, tried to foster an environment that could contain them all, while continuing to provide them with the room for their personal & school specializations. Some stuck around; some split in early political rifts.

The ground-fighting I remember wasn't as grappling-focused as BJJ/MMA, unless you paired with a school that had a kenpo prof/judo competitor running it. There were breakfalls, throws, submission holds, but there were also a lot of sparring sessions sitting on our butts, knees or all fours, after long hours of drilling how to punch and kick from the floor once you were unceremoniously tossed there. Some kenpo techs hearken back memories for me (what's that one with the spinning back kick from all fours?), but I doubt most have ever spent the time sparring from the floor to be facile enough to pull it off witrh any coordination or authority. Sparring clashes were as likely to end in the butts-on-floor position, as they were upright. The purpose of sparring wasn't to iron out your tournament scoring game, but rather to become decent with the tools you were drilling. Tournament scoring came as a side-effect of having better skills then the other guy. It took some time for it to become a game of guys specializing in scoring, rather than just mixing it up until somebody got a clean one.

You might find your continuous sparring clash go to the floor, and you try to get a headlock on a guy, but can't because he keeps planting his foot in your face from on his side or derrier. Sparring used to always be continuous (go for 5 minutes, then rotate partners, and go again). Then we got so far from it, that the return to it is considered novel and new. Tourneys used to have scoring rules for take-downs, hitting the guy you threw after you threw him, hitting the guy who threw you either on your way down or fater you landed, and for counter-throwing the guy who just started dumping you. Then, again because of tournament politics, people decided it was easier to just have standing rules. Not to mention, cracking your head on the concrete at the Long Beach Convention Center before face protection and head gear came out hurt; lots of people were thankful for the Jhoon Rhee Saf-T-Chop coming onto the market. There was always concern about the next head injury being fatal, so tossing to the ground and fighting from the ground became passe, and all but forgotten.

Funny how if you stick around long enough, your old clothes come back in fashion.

Dave

 

[Flying Crane]

Of course, the goal of a stand up fighter is to not roll around for 20min looking for a submission, but to escape and get back to our feet. Perhaps its missing from 'my' Kenpo, hense the reason I crosstrain. I get the impression though, that it wasn't missing from other people, so thats what I'd like to hear.

Mike

I am discovering that Tracy kenpo has this, and yes, this seems to be the approach. If you go down, look for, and fight for, the chance to get back up and get away. Don't try to stay down and turn it into a submission fight.

My teacher has a background in Danzan Ryu jujitsu as well, so maybe some of this comes from that, I guess I don't know for sure, but he was a student of the Tracys from the early 1960s onward. I think he's been doing it long enough to say how much of it is in Tracys (aka early Parker). I'll make a point of asking him tomorrow night.

 

[Sigung86]

A small digression from the general trend of this thread

Great stories Dave... I had gotten away from tourney fighting long before the 80s rolled around. Matter of fact, not being in close to the IKAs... My tournament fighting was done in Texas. Light contact was if you blasted your opponent and s/he could, bloody or not, get up afterward and still go. And yes, there were some darned tough ladies in those days.

I watched a match once where one guy got thrown so hard that he had to concede the match for he had ... doodied his drawers! :lol:

We didn't have much in the way of "sparring gear"... Consisted mainly of tape over the knuckles and on the toes, and when we practiced, someone came up with an old chest protector that had half-cut bamboo slats. I took a couple of great shots in that thing, and MAN! It still knocked the pee-waddin' out of you.

Heck... Once, being totally asleep on the mat, I took a spinning rear heel hook to the throat and dropped like a sack of taters. Of course, after a 10 count I got up, and so the match continued (Good ol' Texas light contact rules).

I think, however, the dumbest thing I ever did when tournament fighting was fighing a TKD guy. He wasn't even trying to express light contact. Finally after a couple of clinches, I backed off quickly as he moved in hard. Took him with a monkey flip... Broke my toes, broke his cup ... Sent him to the hospital, and got disqualified (Good ol' Texas light contact rules)!!!!

:whip: :cheers:


Finally, back about 94 or so, I went to a tournament here in Missouri. Was sparring in the senior Black Belt Division (I was kind of old by then) ... Guy I was fighting threw a round house which I conveniently caught with a pseudo-universal block, step through and pull over. As I dropped in on him, his eyes were all buggy looking, judges were all yelling "BREAK!!! BREAK!!!"
The center judge came up and said, "You can't do that"! I looked at him with all the dash and aplomb I could muster, and said, "Oh ... I don't know ... Appears to me I just did".

Ahhh.... The good old days. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now returning to the regular thread...

 

[MJS]

A lot of guys were doing a lot of different stuff, even way back when. In the 70's, guys were getting out of the service, and starting kenpo clubs. Each dude would have specialties they picked up either in or after the service, or sometimes before (boxing, wrestling, judo, etc.).

Their kenpo would wear that flavor, and they would accentuate parts of the system that complemented their interests, while downplaying ones that didn't. A golden gloves vet would downplay the ground ops, and stress adjunct boxing material, while an NCAA college wrestler who joined the judo club while stationed at Okinawa would come back and stress an adjunct skill set of floor fighting and throws. Take another guy stationed in Korea, and now you have kenpo with a TKD aftertaste; you're gonna get heel-kicked sparring, which back then, not many people outside the Korean arts had seen them.

For addicts who knew who did what (because you got boxed or judo thrown at a tournament by one of their guys), you went with who was stressing what you wanted to know. Kind of like present days...want phillipino knife-flavored kenpo? Find a Huk school. And so on. It was just on more of a local level, since Southern California had so many kenpo guys in it from diverse backgrounds. Mr. Parker, I believe, tried to foster an environment that could contain them all, while continuing to provide them with the room for their personal & school specializations. Some stuck around; some split in early political rifts.

The ground-fighting I remember wasn't as grappling-focused as BJJ/MMA, unless you paired with a school that had a kenpo prof/judo competitor running it. There were breakfalls, throws, submission holds, but there were also a lot of sparring sessions sitting on our butts, knees or all fours, after long hours of drilling how to punch and kick from the floor once you were unceremoniously tossed there. Some kenpo techs hearken back memories for me (what's that one with the spinning back kick from all fours?), but I doubt most have ever spent the time sparring from the floor to be facile enough to pull it off witrh any coordination or authority. Sparring clashes were as likely to end in the butts-on-floor position, as they were upright. The purpose of sparring wasn't to iron out your tournament scoring game, but rather to become decent with the tools you were drilling. Tournament scoring came as a side-effect of having better skills then the other guy. It took some time for it to become a game of guys specializing in scoring, rather than just mixing it up until somebody got a clean one.

You might find your continuous sparring clash go to the floor, and you try to get a headlock on a guy, but can't because he keeps planting his foot in your face from on his side or derrier. Sparring used to always be continuous (go for 5 minutes, then rotate partners, and go again). Then we got so far from it, that the return to it is considered novel and new. Tourneys used to have scoring rules for take-downs, hitting the guy you threw after you threw him, hitting the guy who threw you either on your way down or fater you landed, and for counter-throwing the guy who just started dumping you. Then, again because of tournament politics, people decided it was easier to just have standing rules. Not to mention, cracking your head on the concrete at the Long Beach Convention Center before face protection and head gear came out hurt; lots of people were thankful for the Jhoon Rhee Saf-T-Chop coming onto the market. There was always concern about the next head injury being fatal, so tossing to the ground and fighting from the ground became passe, and all but forgotten.

Funny how if you stick around long enough, your old clothes come back in fashion.

Dave

I am discovering that Tracy kenpo has this, and yes, this seems to be the approach. If you go down, look for, and fight for, the chance to get back up and get away. Don't try to stay down and turn it into a submission fight.

My teacher has a background in Danzan Ryu jujitsu as well, so maybe some of this comes from that, I guess I don't know for sure, but he was a student of the Tracys from the early 1960s onward. I think he's been doing it long enough to say how much of it is in Tracys (aka early Parker). I'll make a point of asking him tomorrow night.

Dave: Thanks for the info.

Mike: Yes, I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say.

 

[donald]

In my limited experience over the years I have seen some changes. For example I was taught to tighten up cirles,strike pathes etc.. In consideration of economy of motion. Now its open up, and say blam... One technique example for me is Thundering Hammers. Taught to me originally;take the hammers to about shoulder/eyebrow height. This way you avoided wasted motion, etc.. Now I hear "reach high grab the clouds", and bring the thunder down! My understanding back in the day was you did'nt need to reach high to be effective. Proper body mechanics coupled with speed etc.. Allowed you to keep your zone of protection smaller, and therfore you did'nt need wide circles etc.. To execute your stuff with power. It used to kind of bother me. That this stuff I was taught as absolute American Kenpo dogma, is'nt. I guess it just show s that there is only one absolutely unchangeable truth in this life. The Holy Bible,GOD's Word... Oh well,live, and loin,live, and loin...
1stJohn1:9

 

[Kenpo17]

One big change that has occured over the years are weopons. Mr. Parker taught how to defend yourself with bare hands, no weopons at all except your hands and feet. Today in modernized Kenpo, we are taught weopons such as the kama, sai, fan, staff/bo, and knuchuks. This is a change, I know my school started to teach weopons for competitions mainly, demo teams. Now at least in the WKKA, their tournaments now have weopons as one of the competitions.