Board-Breaking Competitions

[Last Fearner]

I've never attended a board breaking competition - has anyone ever read the fine print in the enrollment packet? or the rules?

I have read many tournament rules, and written quite a few. The only stipulation that I have ever seen that affects breaking materials is when the tournament host requires the boards to be purchased at the tournament site. Hopefully, the tournament organizers have the common sense to buy the wood well in advance, cut it to length, and let the sap dry out naturally!

Like Kacey, I have been involved with tournaments that do provide the boards to attempt to prevent fixing of breaking materials, but it does not always succeed. As I said, a person who is dishonest is going to attempt to cheat one way or another (even switching tournament boards with boards brought at the last minute, or scoring them just before breaking). Inspection is the only way to ensure a fair break.

Do contests generally have restrictions against over-dried wood, sir?

Basically, if a tournament permits boards to be brought, then the only rules are that they must not be "tampered with" in order to give an unfair advantage, and this is something that is left to the inspection by the judges in the ring. Since drying the wood naturally is a standard practice (it dries some in shipment from the mill to the Lumber Yard, and while waiting at the Lumber Yard to be bought) there are no rules against drying wood. No one knows how long a plank has been drying since the time it was cut from the tree, and Lumber Yards often have a mixture of new shipments with wood that has been there a while.

Rules simply can not arbitrate drying time or methods, but judges can check to see if the wood is too easy to break. If the tournament is providing the boards, then there is no need for a rule because everyone is using boards of similar drying time (hopefully), but you still have to check the boards in the ring for natural imperfections, and impromptu fixing.

I can understand wood having hairline cracks is indicative of it being dried. However, is that necessarily indicative of the board being baked per se? It seems that unfinished wood could conceivably get as dry as that simply by sitting in dry air for too long before competition.

You are right, Carol. A plank of wood (like pine) can have splits and hairline cracks just because of the way the tree grew, and the plank was taken from a weak spot. Also, natural drying of wood can cause hairline cracks as the wood dries out, expands and contracts from heat and cold of day and night or the seasons. Between Jr. High and High School, I spent six years in woodworking and cabinet making classes (made a nice grandmother clock). We always have to lookout for these natural splits in the wood.

Also, I have changed boards out on children who selected wood with a huge knot in the middle. They would likely break their hand or injure their foot if they attempted to break such a board, but they or their parents didn't know this, and their instructor apparently didn't check it. I've also seen knots, and sections of wood go flying and hit board-holders or someone clear across the room.

I *do* believe it is *generally* looked upon as "cheating."

"Cheating" requires first that a rule to be written and enforced upon all of the contestants at a given event, and then to have one or more individuals violate that rule in order to gain an unfair advantage. A tournament in which everyone is allowed to bring their own boards, and allows any method of drying, then drying or baking can not be rightfully called "cheating." Absent of a rule, you can not have a violation of that rule. The practice of drying wood, in and of itself, is not "cheating." Only using dried wood, or baked wood at a tournament that forbids it would be cheating against those specific rules!

 

[shesulsa]

"Cheating" requires first that a rule to be written and enforced upon all of the contestants at a given event, and then to have one or more individuals violate that rule in order to gain an unfair advantage. A tournament in which everyone is allowed to bring their own boards, and allows any method of drying, then drying or baking can not be rightfully called "cheating." Absent of a rule, you can not have a violation of that rule. The practice of drying wood, in and of itself, is not "cheating." Only using dried wood, or baked wood at a tournament that forbids it would be cheating against those specific rules!

You really don't need to emphasize your words using bolding and underlining any more than you already have, sir. I do understand the concept of written rules and what the literal definition is of cheating. So I will refer you again to what I said:

I *do* believe it is *generally* looked upon as "cheating." I did not say that what you are doing is cheating. I did not say that I thought it was cheating. I did not say that there is a rule somewhere that says it is cheating - I said I believe that the general concensus is that it is considered to be cheating.

I also usually become uncomfortable when people are so animated with the semantics and specifics of rules and ... work-arounds. Because I would think one would have to admit that if one does not "have the time" to naturally dry wood appropriately that baking the boards, even if for a very short time, could be considered a work-around or a substitute.

It's a bit different than protecting the soft developing bones of children from damage by giving them an easier board to break, though that could also be done dimensionally.

And I don't think anyone is arguing the knots issue (still have a scar from the knot in a board I once held, thanks to another user here on MT).

I think the worry is that this work-around of baking boards might give one an unfair advantage since baking the boards lends a different, more intensely drying effect to the wood than does natural aging, hence the idea that many people consider this "cheating."

 

[cdunn]

Yeesh. One casual comment.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to read and respond over the weeked, but, as for the particular tourney on question, the rules are oddly mum about the provision of boards. It's customary in the related tournaments I've been to, though, for the host school to be selling boards at the site of tournament, you are required to use those boards. I expect this one will be the same.

 

[Kacey]

I agree with shesulsa on this one. From my training, it is considered cheating to dry wood with a heat source. This is not written down anywhere - it is something that instructors teach their students. Since boards are provided by the instructor for the class, and by the promoter for events - and we all have the same Grand Master who defines "fixing" as preparing the boards in any way that is not going to happen between the sawmill, the lumber yard, and in normal storage (which is inside, away from significant variations in temperature) - then yes, for myself, I would consider baking the boards to be as much "fixing" the materials as scoring the wood, shaving the board, or any of the other methods of "fixing" materials that anyone can think of - and I consider "fixing" and "cheating" to be synonymous in this context. No, it is not a written rule for tournaments - it is something we were all taught as students and adhere to as instructors, an accepted definition within our association.

As far as what students do with boards at the event - we must set our events up differently than yours, because the boards are not sold to the students; they are stacked up against the wall where breaking will take place, and the people running the breaking take boards off the nearest stack (checking for flaws, cracks, excessive knots, etc.), put them in the holder or on the cinder blocks (depending on the break) and competitors break them. Competitors have the option of choosing other boards from the ones provided, of rearranging the materials, etc. - but that always occurs in the presence of the referees, so opportunities to modify materials are generally not available. Certainly, if someone were so inclined, s/he could take boards from the stack prior to their event and modify them - but since the choice of boards is random (from the nearest stack, usually), and the number of boards to be broken is determined as the competitors line up, it would be extremely difficult to for someone to modify boards ahead of time and ensure that s/he got the same boards when it was his/her turn.

 

[Last Fearner]

You really don't need to emphasize your words using bolding and underlining any more than you already have, sir.

Shesula, please do not misinterpret, or take offense to my practice of bolding or underlining words in my replies. It is not intended to be insulting or to imply a harsh response. I realize that many people do not have time to read long replies, and often skim through the posts. I do this to help people see the particular words and phrases that I consider important to making my point. Sorry if it appeared to have a different meaning.

I said I believe that the general concensus is that it is considered to be cheating.

The reason I challenged this allegation in the first place is that I believe the term "cheating" has a very harsh and negative connotation, and implies, by definition, that a person who does this practice from time to time is being "dishonest." If you say there is a "general consensus" which supports this notion that baking wood, even to the slightest degree of removing excessive moisture, is cheating, then who is participating in this pole. "General consensus" seems to attempt to convince others that the "majority" of persons in this field would agree that any baking is "cheating," but I question if such a widespread "consensus" has been taken.

I was taught the same ethics and integrity about not "fixing" materials for demonstrations, let alone competition, and I teach the same to my students. I don't advocate baking, but I am not going to call those who do "cheaters" or "dishonest" when they have not "cheated" anyone at anything.

To establish when it becomes cheating:

1. If a person buys a plank of #2 pine 8' x 12" x 3/4", takes it home and never cuts it into smaller boards, never bakes it, and never breaks any of the wood - - is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

2. If they cut the plank into average size boards, bake them, but never break the boards, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

3. If they cut the boards, bake them, and break them in their back yard for practice, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

4. If they cut the boards, bake them, and take them to a tournament, where all contestants are allowed to supply their own wood, and all contestants are allowed to bake their wood or dry it naturally, and they break those boards in a competition where the rules permit it for everyone, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

5. If the tournament rules state that no wood is to be baked for drying purposes, and a contestant uses wood that is baked, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

How much does natural drying change the difficulty in breaking a pine board? Is it significantly different for drying naturally for one day as opposed to one week, or one week as opposed to one month, or one month as opposed to one year? Have tests been done to measure how much easier it gets over time by drying naturally? Do we set limits on how much time is allowed between the purchase of wood to the date of the tournament? Do we require verification of the room temperature where the boards are stored and if there is electric heat as opposed to a gas furnace, and how far are the board stored from any room's heater vent?

Perhaps someone who advocates "buy and break the same day," sap and all, would say that even one day of natural drying time is "cheating." Cheating who? What are boards really supposed to do, but provide a target with some resistance to show power? How much resistance is in each pine board? How much is that changed by natural drying? How much by baking? Is the allegation that baking can be abused and thus is "fixing" the materials? If you bake for one hour, but another person dries naturally for one week or one month, whose boards will be easier to break? Have tests been done? Couldn't a person who dries their boards naturally abuse the system and gain an unfair advantage?

I think this is a valid discussion with valid issues that should be talked about among Martial Artists. Rather than just blanketly labeling all drying as cheating, or all baking as cheating, or all cutting of boards into narrower pieces as cheating, we should analyze the results of doing so, and see if it really has a great affect. Plus, what difference does it make if it is fairly, and evenly done by everyone (some natural drying, long term drying, quick baking, over-baking, over-drying naturally)?

Until someone provides statistics that shows every board provided by a tournament has the exact same moisture and sap content, has dried naturally the exact same amount of time from tree to Lumber Yard to tournament day, and will break under the same exact pressure (or within a certain allowable range), then I think we need to do more research and tests. Perhaps drying wood artificially, to a pre-approved exact temperature, then testing to see what the resistance of each board is depending on drying time, might be the only way to ensure a closer, more fair contest. The very practice that some are calling "cheating" might be the best way to level the playing field, make all boards break under the same (or very close) resistance, thus making contests more fair.

Opinions and input are welcome! :ultracool

 

[Kacey]

The very practice that some are calling "cheating" might be the best way to level the playing field, make all boards break under the same (or very close) resistance, thus making contests more fair.

If your purpose is to level the playing field, then perhaps this would be true - but if that were the purpose, why break wood? Why not just buy rebreakable boards, and ensure that each board has been used the same number of times before being used in competition; that would be much more "fair" than trying to standardize boards, which are, by their very nature, not consistent. If your purpose is to challenge your students to surpass their preconceptions about what they can and cannot do, and to teach them to adapt to the circumstances life presents them, I see no purpose in finding ways to "standardize" breaks.

If my students attend a tournament - to break, to spar, to perform patterns, etc. - and can come back and tell me what they've learned, then I am happy. Whether they win or lose is of no import to me - just what they learn in the process. Learning to deal with defeat can be a valuable lesson. Learning to win well - with grace and courtesy - can also be a valuable lesson, and one that many people never learn unless the circumstances are against them... as when the boards are not "standardized", and students who expect to win lose, because they got a bad board. Learning to deal with variations is part of life.

After all, in a self-defense situation, which do you want to think - "Wait, I can't fight you, your bones look denser than what I'm used to, I can't break your rib/arm/leg because I've practiced on standardized boards" OR "Hmm... he's big... I'm going to have to hit him harder, just like those nasty boards I practiced on"? This is, of course, a dramatization - but it demonstrates my viewpoint. As an instructor, I am attempting to individualize my students' instruction, so that each is able to react individually to the circumstances that life presents them with - not create assembly line robots that can't deal with non-standardized situations.

Board breaking may not seem particularly important to you as a method of reaching individualization - but to me it is, and I would rather spend time teaching my students to deal with the variables of different boards than searching for ways to standardize the materials.

 

[Last Fearner]

As an instructor, I am attempting to individualize my students' instruction, so that each is able to react individually to the circumstances that life presents them with - not create assembly line robots that can't deal with non-standardized situations.

Board breaking may not seem particularly important to you as a method of reaching individualization - but to me it is, and I would rather spend time teaching my students to deal with the variables of different boards than searching for ways to standardize the materials.

Wow! Where did this come from out of left field. Do you forget that I'm the one who said I don't object to people bringing their own boards to tournaments, drying their own boards, or baking them. As long as the board is not "flimsy" and too easy, I have no objections to the variations in board difficulty - heck, I grew up breaking boards that way in tournaments, and promote it among my students. I responded to those who said drying or baking makes the boards easier than other people's boards, so they are the ones who advocated tournament provided boards for consistency. I merely said that if they want consistency, perhaps consistent drying time would be more accurate!

I teach my students with plenty of individualism to their training, but I also work towards a consistent base that everyone is capable of accomplishing (depending on age, rank, and other factors), then build from there. In time, any student of mine will have no problem breaking four or five boards, straight from the Lumber Yard, with no extra drying! Why not use re-breakable boards for competition, well I'm sure it would even things out a bit, and I've heard some people suggest that seriously (not me), but I still believe there is a realism to breaking wood and I don't care to see that go away.

I don't know if this conversation is not going the way it should, but I make a few comments to appease those who are looking for consistent, fair tournaments, and you seem to label me as a robot factory, producing students who can't deal with challenges, or difficult board breaking?????
Where does that come from???? If only you knew me, and my students!

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Lynne]

We will buying the boards at our tournament.

 

[Last Fearner]

We will buying the boards at our tournament.

Well, there you go! No fuss ~ No muss!

I hope all goes well for you! :ultracool

 

[searcher]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.

 

[Lynne]

Well, there you go! No fuss ~ No muss!

I hope all goes well for you! :ultracool

I just found out that we have to purchase the boards at the competition. I guess I'm glad of that.

I hope they aren't green though. That wouldn't be any fun. It is quite humid up here. Maybe they'll dry out the boards a little

Thank you for the well wishes.

 

[Lynne]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.

Give me three years...ha ha ha ha

 

[Last Fearner]

I hope they aren't green though. That wouldn't be any fun. It is quite humid up here. Maybe they'll dry out the boards a little

Oh Noooo! We're going in circles!!! :lol:

 

[shesulsa]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.

I've known people to bake these too!! *groan*

 

[Carol]

I've known people to bake these too!! *groan*

But baking bricks is patently against (nearly all) competition rules. Breaking boards doesn't seem to have the same prohibition...

 

[Lynne]

Today is the day! We have our board-breaking clinic today. I'll make a separate post regarding how it went, what we did.

I have questions about the drying of boards. Some of you feel it is cheating, others have always done it to remove excess water/dry out the sap.

Is there any scientific proof that drying #2 pineboards makes an iota of difference when breaking???? If so, how much??? Is there really an advantage to drying the boards?

I was going through a stack of precut boards the other night. Some were quite heavy with sap. Some were not.

The way I see it, fairness may not happen. What if you are one of the last people buying boards to break and the only ones left are heavy with sap??? Or there isn't a grain to speak of, but crazy whirls. Those boards are not going to break - most likely. Maybe the school won't bring such boards to sell?

What if boards are cut over a 6 week period? Some will be drier than others. Will it make any difference during breaking?

 

[Lynne]

One more question. Where should boards be stored? Mine are in the trunk of the car. I guess I should try to find a dry place. That's not happening in my house. I guess I could try some spacers of some kind.

 

[Tez3]

Good luck! though why anyone wants to punch pieces of wood is beyond me lol! It's why I like MMA I get to punch people and it's fair.... they get to punch me back!!
:boing2:

 

[Lynne]

Good luck! though why anyone wants to punch pieces of wood is beyond me lol! It's why I like MMA I get to punch people and it's fair.... they get to punch me back!!
:boing2:[/quote

I think board-breaking is very valuable though. It teaches one how to focus a lot of energy in one area.

The board can't hit me back but if I hit one wrong, I'm sure I'll be sorry.

During the last board-breaking clinic, a woman tried a chop break (I think it was a chop) and hit the board with the wrong part of her hand. Her hand bruised all the way through from the top of the hand through the palm. Her hand turned all sorts of pretty colors instantly.

I just hope I don't hit the board with my elbow funny bone when trying an elbow strike.