Blocks?

[kaesa]

Hello,

How much force does it take to block or parry a power strike?
I realize it depends on the strength and technique of each player,
but alot of the techniques that Prof. taught were in close range (tappi-tappi stuff) where it seems that it wouldn't take a whole lot of strength for the parry/strike/lock.

If trying some of the same techniques with a little more "oommph" behind the strike, how would that change drill?

Did Prof. ever emphasize power?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think getting off the line of attack is more important than developing power in your blocks. This allows you a margin for error and negates the need for force against force. There is nothing wrong with executing strong blocks but all to often blocking becomes the object of your overall motion if you let it. Activated checks and purposefull return motion really help to tie up an opponents motion, which is more preferable to setting back and just blocking missle attacks... eventualy you eat a punch. Power is always a plus until it is misplaced.

 

[MJS]

Getting off liine is definately a good thing to do. Working footwork and the angles will help. As for the blocking, keep in mind that the blocking of the stick is done in training, to help you get used to the tech. In reality, you would be 'blocking' the hand holding the stick!

Mike

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by kaesa
Hello,

1. How much force does it take to block or parry a power strike?
I realize it depends on the strength and technique of each player,
but alot of the techniques that Prof. taught were in close range (tappi-tappi stuff) where it seems that it wouldn't take a whole lot of strength for the parry/strike/lock.

2. If trying some of the same techniques with a little more "oommph" behind the strike, how would that change drill?

3. Did Prof. ever emphasize power?

Thanks,
Joe

Hi Joe,
Here's a couple of answers for you.
1. If you go force to force, it will take a blaster to handle a blaster. If you don't have the time to zone out, then you'll need a brace from the other hand as RP taught it or a modified brace as Dr. Gyi teaches it.
2. It would change the entry from a sweep stroke to some form of block-check-counter butt stroke entry.
3. Yes. All the time he would be yelling out, "Harder!" when doing drills. Plus, when he worked with you, he used power.

YOurs,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Power:

1. How well you can harness the power of your strike will be a major factor in determining how successful of a stick fighter you'll be. In attempting to generate power with the cane, many people "wittic" or whip the stick. A whip will sting, but it will not penetrate well in Tapi-Tapi or single cane sparring close range. So, with close range stick work, think of generating power with the stick the same way you do with your punch. If you want your punch to have power, you put your body behing your strike, correct? You strike 'with you whole body' not just with you fist. This should be the same with the cane; you strike using your hips/body rather then trying to whip the cane to generate power. You will find that this is less telegraphic and more devestating of a strike.

2. The other important part of power striking is accuracy. I'll illustrate what I mean: Most people who fire a leg shot hit with the belly of the stick on the upper thigh. This does no real damage. This is why people don't strike at the knee often in Tapi-Tapi, and this is why most stickfighters are weak in blocking knees. It becomes "less important" if the strike is not accurate. Their lack of accuracy makes them have to revert to "headhunting" all the time. However, if I strike at your knee, I plan on hitting with the end of my cane, not the belly. I also plan on having only about 1/2 to 1 centimeter of my cane touching about 1/2 to 1 centimeter of the knee cap. So, all of my power becomes concentrated in a very small space, which is bone. This will shatter, crack, or swell the kneecap as opposed to just bruising the leg. If I strike with that kind of accuracy, I may take down my opponent with my knee shot immediately, and I may not even get to the head shot.

So with accuracy comes more damage, and a better way of harnessing power. Power isn't wasted with accuracy. If I strike with accuracy, then my head shots become temple shatterers, and my limb shots are crippling. We forget about this because in practice we aren't shattering our classmates, or having them try to shatter us. Even in "competition" we wear gear to lesson the effects. So, we forget the importance of accuracy. However, if you know that accuracy is a necissary attribute, then you can practice. I prefer to put a very small line on a target (heavy bag, tree, pole, etc.), and for a beginner I would tape your stick so that you have maybe a hand and a half of space on the end marked as your striking surface. Also, only leave about 2-3 fingers of space of puno so you don't take away power there.
Then, strike away, trying to hit you marked line every time.

Have fun!
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I do allow myself an occasional belly-of-the-stick hit when I'm in tight and would have to shift too much to get a better hit--e.g. before a number 5 disarm, where if I want to hit the forearm after the sweeping block I'd have to be further away from the opponent than I'd like for the coming disarm. Since I'm using the middle of the stick it'll be more distraction than destruction; it's a compromise. But I've found that leg shots are typically as you say--unfocused, and I can generally take them and step in for a good shot to the upper body. People also react and adjust more easily on a shot to the upper body--if I move toward the opponent while he strikes at my head he can often adjust, but if I move toward him while he strikes at my leg he'll often find it much harder to redirect the strike (unless he pulls it and goes for an upper body shot). Not true of everyone, but common enough in my experience.

 

[Cruentus]

Occasional a belly of the stick hit happends, but I try not to allow it too, or do it intentionally. My Balintawak influence helps me there. Remy taught us how to hold the stick correctly (with only 2 fingers of puno, how to strike with the end, etc.), however his footwork was more influenced by Timor's and Moncol's Balintawak, as well as other FMA systems, etc. When he actually taught footwork, in forms in such, it was usually from his Shotokan influence. You'll notice, however, that he didn't adopt "Karate like" stances by any stretch of the means when he actually would get going with the stick, and especially during tapi-tapi. My point is, though, that because of the "art within you art" concept, Remy barely taught footwork, expecting that individuals would use the footwork from their base styles. So there is a distinct difference from one Modern Arnis Player to another when it comes to footwork and body movement/positioning.

My point is, I find that a lot of strictly Modern Arnis players are not always in an advantagous position in regards to footwork and body positioning for "stick dueling" (which is basically what Tapi-Tapi is), even if the footwork is good for other situations (maybe general self- defence, largo mano, or blade work). This sometimes lead to a lot of "belly of the stick" striking in certian circumstances that could be avoided with different footwork.

This is not a rip on Modern Arnis, by the way...Modern Arnis was not designed just for stick dueling, but for self defence, so different footwork had it's place under different self defence situations.

Anciong's Balintawak is designed specifically for single cane dueling, however. So, the footwork we have in Balintawak is specifically geared towards stick-play, as well as our body shifting. A lot of this is geared towards giving yourself just enough space so you can strike with the end of the stick rather then the belly. The "Undayang" or "lean" is signature Anciong Bacon's Balintawak. We are taught to lean our bodies, shift, or step to put us in an advantagious position when we strike, so that we can generate maximum power. Since I have adopted this method of single cane fighting, when I Tapi-Tapi I find myself adopting this footwork and body shifting, and now I can strike "properly" more often then my pre-balintawak training.

Just some food for thought. If you have a chance to play with Tim soon, ask him about how the lean and footwork is incorporated in Balintawak to get maximum power/accuracy in your strike. Keep in mind that the lean/footwork serves other purposes as well, but accuracy and power is definatily one of them.

I'd show you myself, but I am betting you'll see Tim before you see me.

 

[DoxN4cer]

When you get right down to it, there really are no blocks... just counter strikes.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, he's shown me the lean. I remember the Professor using a lean back on occasion to get room for a strike, but not often.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
When you get right down to it, there really are no blocks... just counter strikes.

Sort of....

I would say it depends on who your fighting. Certian "blocks" are not advantagous to use when fighting an eskrimador, but may work well in other situations.

Example: Brace block. The brace is a good block if your opponent has a larger/heavier weapon. Remy taught it because he was teaching self defense, and the brace is a good self defense tool. If someone attacks with a bat, or a shovel, you can be preped with the brace. However, the brace is not a strike. Also, the brace is not advantagious to use in stick dueling, or Tapi-Tapi. If someone uses a brace and I have a cane, I know that they have committed to that block. Once I know that they are commited, it becomes very easy for me abort my original strike and strike elsewhere before they can move.

Another Example: Umbrella block. Umbrella block is also a good block for certain circumstances, particularly if the tools are blades. If you both have bolo's, or espada Y Daga, the Umbrella block is a good way to handle an overhead strike. I would argue, however, that in Tapi-Tapi this block is not effective against an eskrimador. You will find yourself trapped, or eating your own cane. Now the arguement can be made that this could be useful in Largo Mano; I say that it is only less dangerous in largo mano, however less dangerous doesn't mean advantagious. Advantagious it is not.

Here are some other types of blocks that I might as well address:

1. "The Strike": This is what Tim K. was talking about, I think. In seminars Remy taught that the most ideal block for self defence was not to block at all, but just to strike the wrist/hand of the attacking arm. I would have to agree that this is most ideal for self defence. I would have to say that in Tapi-Tapi or stick dueling, you can't always hit the limb against a good eskrimador. Against a good eskrimador who is striking properly (as I previously explained), the limb is not as accessable to a grab, or strike. By the time you try to grab or stike the limb, you will be hit already because you would have been forced to telegraph your movements. Also, if you always go for a limb shot as your block all the time, it will be very easy for an eskrimador to use this against you, baiting you to attack the limb so he can counter you somewhere else. So strike the attacking limb if you can, but remember that you can't always strike the limb; you have to be careful with this one.

2. " 'X' Block": This is "the mistake", as I call it. I feel that the X Block is widely misused. Most people do this, but I feel that it is incorrect. An X Block is meeting the other persons cane, force to force, with your cane, thus making an "X". I believe that this started when Remy, and others, told us that striking the limb was ideal, but that for practice we could strike the cane. Now people block by striking the cane force to force, making this X, forgeting that this was supposed to emulate a limb strike. The X block will work against the regular Joe, but against an eskrimador an X block will get your cane grabbed or disarmed. Plus, by meeting force to force with their cane, you are expecting impact. An eskrimador can bait you with this by aborting the initial strike, allowing you to overextend because you expected impact, giving him the opportuntity to hit you elsewhere.

3. "90 degree block" This is taught in Balintawak. Remy did this to a degree, but didn't really explain it. Basically, you block with your stick stright up in the air, creating a 90 degree angle at the wrist. your wrist and shoulder is tightened in such a manner that you can withstand the force of a strike. You add this with a downward motion when you meet the other persons cane. This block is better demonstrated then explained over the internet. This one is probably the most advantagious against an eskrimador because it eliminates the problems created by the other kinds of blocks, and once learned it is the easiest to execute in that it takes the least amount of movement and effort. By being able to block successfully with minimal effort and movement, you become less suseptable to a fake or a stick grab/disarm.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, he's shown me the lean. I remember the Professor using a lean back on occasion to get room for a strike, but not often.

I agree with you here.
The reason he didn't use the lean often is two fold, at least by my opinion. #1 Timor Maranga's Balintawak seems to be, at least by my perception, where Remy developed his "style" off of. Timor was described to me as being very aggressive, like a bull. He would charge in, grab the other guys stick, hit, and use the puno often for butt strikes due to being so aggressive and getting so close. Remy was also very aggressive, and like a bull. Timor's style is different then Anciongs a bit, and the lean wasn't used as often. #2 Remy's aggressive fighting added to our lack of ability as students to keep up with him ment that he didn't have to use the lean as much to do Tapi-Tapi with us.

So, he only leaned when he had too, which wasn't often with us!

These are just my theories, though.

 

[arnisador]

Great stuff in this thread PAUL--you should develop it into an article!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
Great stuff in this thread PAUL--you should develop it into an article!

Thanks! I think I will, after the "Remy Presas and Balintawak" series I am doing for MT magazine!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by kaesa
Hello,

How much force does it take to block or parry a power strike?
I realize it depends on the strength and technique of each player,
but alot of the techniques that Prof. taught were in close range (tappi-tappi stuff) where it seems that it wouldn't take a whole lot of strength for the parry/strike/lock.

If trying some of the same techniques with a little more "oommph" behind the strike, how would that change drill?

Did Prof. ever emphasize power?

Thanks,
Joe

Joe,

Adding a little more power behind the strike is a good thing in my mind. First, it will make the training partner work on his blocks as well as you are working on actually striking. Now work with control so that if a person misses, you can abort or control your shot.

With the added power into the system, you should also slow down at first, to work on the timing of the techniques. Go slow and work the flow to get your timing and then slowing increase.

Will you be checking out the WMAA Camp in October?
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by PAUL


3. "90 degree block" This is taught in Balintawak. Remy did this to a degree, but didn't really explain it. Basically, you block with your stick stright up in the air, creating a 90 degree angle at the wrist. your wrist and shoulder is tightened in such a manner that you can withstand the force of a strike. You add this with a downward motion when you meet the other persons cane.

*This block is better demonstrated then explained over the internet. *

This one is probably the most advantagious against an eskrimador because it eliminates the problems created by the other kinds of blocks, and once learned it is the easiest to execute in that it takes the least amount of movement and effort. By being able to block successfully with minimal effort and movement, you become less suseptable to a fake or a stick grab/disarm.

:asian:

* If you get the idea of doing a downward hammerfist in a short, economical motion you basically have it. That's the arm motion and then hold the stick vertically and you'll have the "90 degree block." It's very good for covering against an attack without committing your arm outwards for your opponent to grab your stick.

With the tapi-tapi action of going in with the butt of the cane, it all depends who is doing the butting. Dieter Knuettel teaches plowing in very strong so you'd better have a strong check or deflection ready or you'll eat the punyo and get splinters in your tongue.

Yours,
Dan Anderson