Blocks are useless, right?

[Carol]

Thanks, I was imagining knights on horse back with lances and swords

Now I have "Knights in White Satin" going through my head.... :lol:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thanks, I was imagining knights on horse back with lances and swords

Nice. Palimino Paint?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Now I have "Knights in White Satin" going through my head.... :lol:

LOL Remember that commercial: Ladies, look at me; now, look at your man, and; now, back at me. Sadly, he's not me... This is me doing blocks, in a horse; now; I'm on a horse!

 

[K-man]

Just curious. If you try to hit me with your fist, striking towards my head, and I redirect your strike but don't stop it cold, what would that be called? That whether I push it aside or strike your forearm with all the force I can muster.

To me, the first redirection is a deflection. The second is a deliberate strike to the arm. My arguement is that you rarely have time to deliberately block anyway. In a tournament setting when someone is entering from a distance you have some extra time but close up you are working on reflex and that reflex may well be a block although I would doubt it would be a block you were actually taught. It is more likely to be the 'OS' response and you recover from there.

In karate, and I would assume also in TKD because of the Shotokan roots, all our 'blocks' are performed with two hands. The first hand is basically working on the flinch response and I would suggest that the hand that everyone sees is actually a strike.

So in your example above, as the punch was coming towards my head, I would hopefully be deflecting with the first hand using conditioned reflex which may involve tsabaki and striking to a target with the other hand which may actually be the arm, although that would not normally be my preferred option.

Again from your example, the first part or deflection allows your attacker to continue his attack, not realising for that fraction of a second that his attack has failed. By the time he realises it is too late and hopefully you have aken control of the situation. In the second part, as soon as a clash occurs the attacker knows immediately that the attack has failed and launches the next attack. This is a basic principle in both Aikido and Goju karate. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Absolutely, nothing in the rule book says a "block" needs to have deflection as a component and that a block cannot involve absorbtion. You are blocking the shots - with your arms/gloves - from impacting on your torso/head. The strike is "blocked" (call it cover if you will). This is absorbtion by the arms/hands but is still in itself a block. Covering up essentially creates a blockage (= stop) to the blows hitting your vital areas. The blinds "cover" the window and "block" the sun coming in, the sunscrean "covers" the body and "blocks" the nasty UV getting through, the arms "cover" the body and "block" the blows coming in. : )

From being in this posiiton numerous times in the "first person" and in the "second person" (ie delivering end), cover is just blocking those punches from putting a real hurt on.

Not for a moment am I saying "cover" should not be and is not "cover" as in the boxing concept, which is used plenty much out of boxing also, it is just that cover (when you boil it down) = blocking. How can it not?

$10 bucks (that's all I got) if you can convince me otherwise.

This is exactly right and the 'cover' you are referring to is instinctive. Self preservation dictates that we lift our arms or cover our vital areas as in foetal position. These are not blocks we have to learn. The difference between these instinctive blocks and the 'blocks' we train is that the instinctive block is reaction and defensive while our trained response is proaction and offensive.

You get to keep the $10!

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is exactly right and the 'cover' you are referring to is instinctive. Self preservation dictates that we lift our arms or cover our vital areas as in foetal position. These are not blocks we have to learn. The difference between these instinctive blocks and the 'blocks' we train is that the instinctive block is reaction and defensive while our trained response is proaction and offensive.

You get to keep the $10!

I want at least $5.00.

 

[K-man]

I want at least $5.00.

You'll have to take that up with Zero!

 

[Kframe]

I just wanted to add some more, hit me if im off base. You should block the way you were taught and trust your training. I imagine that your instructors are like mine and teach that there are more then a few ways to use each uke. Ill refer back to what I said about the primary and secondary motion, it will depend on your training and your style how you react. A newb may just use the primary movement and end up on the inside, and then be lost as to what to do next. A more advanced practitioner may in that instant, use the secondary motion and end up on the outside. He knows of this because of his more experience in training and quite simply putting in the time. Here is a good set of videos detailing primary and secondary movement. Primary

, secondary movement

Some of the Uke's are better suited to startle flinch responses. In my personal experience that is the soto uke, in both the inward and out ward flavors. I find that those 2 are my go to defenses when I am getting repetition of my deflection responses. I am unconvinced of the chudan uchi uke, something about it does not sit right when used a defense against straight punches.. I just find the soto uke to be so awesome.. Then again im a newb and what do I know..

In the end, the internet is suboptimal, you must trust your training and your teacher. Secondly and this is important you must put in the time actually using the things in various ways. In the end it is up to you to implement your training when the poo hits the fan, and you must trust your self and your training, and only you can decide in that moment what the correct motions are. That decision will be made on instinct, forged by many thousands of repetitions of training and experience.

 

[Kframe]

Thought I would add these videos as well from the same guy. Here is hiki uke secondary movment

, and here is hiki uke primary movement

.

Now I refere to him a lot, for martial inspiration, as I find him to be very friendly and in my conversations with him, he has helped me immensely.

 

[oftheherd1]

To me, the first redirection is a deflection. The second is a deliberate strike to the arm. My arguement is that you rarely have time to deliberately block anyway. In a tournament setting when someone is entering from a distance you have some extra time but close up you are working on reflex and that reflex may well be a block although I would doubt it would be a block you were actually taught. It is more likely to be the 'OS' response and you recover from there.

In karate, and I would assume also in TKD because of the Shotokan roots, all our 'blocks' are performed with two hands. The first hand is basically working on the flinch response and I would suggest that the hand that everyone sees is actually a strike.

So in your example above, as the punch was coming towards my head, I would hopefully be deflecting with the first hand using conditioned reflex which may involve tsabaki and striking to a target with the other hand which may actually be the arm, although that would not normally be my preferred option.

Again from your example, the first part or deflection allows your attacker to continue his attack, not realising for that fraction of a second that his attack has failed. By the time he realises it is too late and hopefully you have aken control of the situation. In the second part, as soon as a clash occurs the attacker knows immediately that the attack has failed and launches the next attack. This is a basic principle in both Aikido and Goju karate. :asian:

I guess it is just a matter of terminology. To me, whether I push a strike or kick aside, or strike it forcefully aside, my defense, that in some wage engages, and prevents an attack from reaching its target (me), is a block. It is the name in English I learned to use for that type of movement, both in TKD many years ago, and later in Hapkido.

If others, in their style, and from their teacher wish to use multiple terms to describe refinements of those motions, I guess there is nothing wrong with that. Nor with my using the term block for all those things, as long as they are useful in defense.

EDIT: I meant to add that in the Hapkido I Iearned, we were taught some blocks with strikes. Many were intended to be simultaneous for all practical purposes. But the block had to effectively engage first or you were walking into a strike or kick.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I guess it is just a matter of terminology. To me, whether I push a strike or kick aside, or strike it forcefully aside, my defense, that in some wage engages, and prevents an attack from reaching its target (me), is a block. It is the name in English I learned to use for that type of movement, both in TKD many years ago, and later in Hapkido.

If others, in their style, and from their teacher wish to use multiple terms to describe refinements of those motions, I guess there is nothing wrong with that. Nor with my using the term block for all those things, as long as they are useful in defense.

EDIT: I meant to add that in the Hapkido I Iearned, we were taught some blocks with strikes. Many were intended to be simultaneous for all practical purposes. But the block had to effectively engage first or you were walking into a strike or kick.

I disagree. If you curl up into a fetal position, to block. No one will agree you were blocking, even if you were, in your head.

 

[Zero]

You'll have to take that up with Zero!

Sorry, I lost all my money over the weekend on another website.

 

[Zero]

Now I have "Knights in White Satin" going through my head.... :lol:

hehe! It was quite a while before I realised it wasn't knights he was yodelling about. Initially I thought it some romantic imagery about a chivalrous knight prancing about on a horse wearing a white cape over his armour. So disappointed when figured otherwise...still a great song though...

 

[oftheherd1]

I disagree. If you curl up into a fetal position, to block. No one will agree you were blocking, even if you were, in your head.

I guess you can make a case for curling up in the fetal position as a block, but I would hope ground fighting techniques would provide better strategies. Of course if you are down and unable to do anything else, that would surely help you survive with less injury. Tucking your knees in will protect you stomach and to some extent your jewels, and covering as much of your head and neck as possible with your hands and arms will help there.

But that seems to me a very static defense, and might not stop enough strikes or kicks to enable you to take the fight to your opponent(s). To me, that is part of what a block does, as well as protect yourself. But again, blocks normally must come first, even if only by a split second, at least imho.

 

[Zero]

I guess you can make a case for curling up in the fetal position as a block, but I would hope ground fighting techniques would provide better strategies. Of course if you are down and unable to do anything else, that would surely help you survive with less injury. Tucking your knees in will protect you stomach and to some extent your jewels, and covering as much of your head and neck as possible with your hands and arms will help there.

But that seems to me a very static defense, and might not stop enough strikes or kicks to enable you to take the fight to your opponent(s). To me, that is part of what a block does, as well as protect yourself. But again, blocks normally must come first, even if only by a split second, at least imho.

I hope no one here is even in this situation but, if you manage to get yourself into such a dud position as to be surrounded by a gang/numerous opponents and are taken down by numbers, no matter how good a ground fighter you are, there may just not be any "take the fight to your opponent(s)". Availability of weapons can change this but one against a concerted group with exits cut off can be in most instances nothing but all bad. Even a great stand up fighter is not going to be able to stop all shots and getting taken or knocked to the ground may well happen, particularly if you can't get your back to an obstacle. Anything to reduce availability of head/vital organs as targets may be the only way to go, at that stage it wil be reduced to nothing more than literally "hanging on to life" until (hopefully) the cavalry come.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just curious. If you try to hit me with your fist, striking towards my head, and I redirect your strike but don't stop it cold, what would that be called? That whether I push it aside or strike your forearm with all the force I can muster.

I would call it a parry. But a lot of people would call it a block. In hapkido, I learned few, if any literal hard blocks. But the Korean instructor used the term "block" for pretty much everything that involved redirecting an incoming strike.

Block is like love; love can mean romantic love, a strong affinity for a certain food or activity, or affection for one's siblings and parents. Each is different, but the same term is used. I find that in Asian martial arts, people love to use the word block to describe a multitude of defensive actions that may or may not be actual blocks.

So in the end, these discussions are as much about word usage and perceptions what a word means as they are about how applicable a "block" itself actually is.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I would call it a parry. But a lot of people would call it a block. In hapkido, I learned few, if any literal hard blocks. But the Korean instructor used the term "block" for pretty much everything that involved redirecting an incoming strike.

Block is like love; love can mean romantic love, a strong affinity for a certain food or activity, or affection for one's siblings and parents. Each is different, but the same term is used. I find that in Asian martial arts, people love to use the word block to describe a multitude of defensive actions that may or may not be actual blocks.

So in the end, these discussions are as much about word usage and perceptions what a word means as they are about how applicable a "block" itself actually is.

That is why most of the time we are checking your opponents efforts; so, positional blocks can be called positional checks so as not to confuse the new guys.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is why most of the time we are checking your opponents efforts; so, positional blocks can be called positional checks so as not to confuse the new guys.

I never noticed it being confusing. For most, calling any sort of deflection a block is like calling any sort of offensive action with the hands/feet a strike. It simply was a general term. A redirect to the side was a side block. A redirect upward was a rising block or a high block.

It isn't an issue until people with different backgrounds start discussing things outside of their normal peer groups. If you say, 'side block' and I say, 'no, that 's a parry,' it doesn't change the nature of the technique you were talking about. Whatever I choose to call it, the technique is still the same technique.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I never noticed it being confusing. For most, calling any sort of deflection a block is like calling any sort of offensive action with the hands/feet a strike. It simply was a general term. A redirect to the side was a side block. A redirect upward was a rising block or a high block.

It isn't an issue until people with different backgrounds start discussing things outside of their normal peer groups. If you say, 'side block' and I say, 'no, that 's a parry,' it doesn't change the nature of the technique you were talking about. Whatever I choose to call it, the technique is still the same technique.

It would be nice to answer a question on this forum without getting bogged down in semantics and terminology.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would be nice to answer a question on this forum without getting bogged down in semantics and terminology.

Who's bogged down by semantics and terminology? Isn't that kind of the issue anyway? How the term is used by each participant is kind of important.