Bigshadow said this elsewhere and Id like to discuss it...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20998

 

[ShaneLayton]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20998

I remember it now. I couldn't remember which forum this had come up on. I think it comes up on all of them from time-to-time.

To steer this thread back in the direction of the original post. I think the original question was whether purposely showing a weak point to draw the attack is the same thing as distraction. I don't think so, because you are not trying to distract your opponent's attention as much as you are trying to get your opponent to be drawn into your deception so you can defeat him. This can be dangerous, too, because while you are trying to play with your opponent's mind by giving him a weak point to attack he's doing the same thing to you. Also, if you misjudge the distance, angle, rhythm or timing his attack may succeed.

Of course, fighting is dangerous anyway. Better to be aware enough to avoid it in the first place. If your opponent percieves you to be well-covered he may move on to a softer target.

Shane

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I've never been a bouncer so I'm not qualified to postulate about what a "good" kamae would be in a given situation. If I understand the posture your referring to its more one of standing with all your weight on one leg, with you hips shifted to the direction of your support leg.

1. I think that moving quickly from such a posture would be difficult, especially if it requires a drastic change of direction. I think you could cross yourself up there. In my line of work I face people daily who would rather see me dead. I tend to stand slightly bladed and just out of arms reach, with my primary weapon away from them. My feet are more like what BigShadow referred to (a bladed shizen no kamae) with my hands at about waist level.

2.I think that goading a bad guy into putting hands on so that you can justify using a physical control technique might place you on shaky legal ground, especially if he gets hurt. I know there are a lot of bouncers who are basically paid thugs just waiting to beat somebody up. I'm not referring to you or anyone else specific here, but I do know there are a good number of that type in that profession.
3.If you are justified in physically removing the individual then just take control of him and move him.
4.Trying to goad him into attacking you places you in a precarious position, not only legally, but physically. What if he wins?

That may be worth 1 1/2 cents.

Shane

ive numbered the points i want to address to make it easier.

1. while the ability to move quick is definitely important in martial arts........the ability to move on time and using proper distancing are far more important. with a proper set-up one need not move as quickly in order to have the desired outcome. by setting your opponent up, you are in effect leading everything.......you move they follow. thats why it is important to practice these things. take something like a neko ashi dachi......that particular stance has the majority of weight on one foot.....but it is a highly mobile kamae to any direction.

2. the purpose of this thread was discussing distraction. if someone is going to fight with you it is better to be preparatory rather than reactionary. a good kamae is the first step in being preparatory, using visual distraction comes in a close second. by doing something like this you take the attacker out of their comfort zone by putting something near them that throws them off balance......not necassarily physically, but mentally. again, you are leading the dance. you are making them react to something that you control rather than you reacting defensively to what they throw at you. i do not fight defensively.....i only fight offensively, i do not take the mindset that i am being defensive.

3. easier said than done....just walking upto to someone and removing them is not making very good use of what you know. 2 cars speeding towards one another end up in a collision.

4. no one is goading anyone on to attack. if the person is already in the frame of mind to fight you have to take your opportunity to lead it as soon as it begins. simply placing your hand in front of someone is not an invitation to fight.....i have not touched them, nor have i harmed them in anyway.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Reading Shane's post brought something to mind. In our dojo we train with the thought that the attacker IS trained and is GOOD at it! We don't train with the thought in mind that this is good enough for the average joe "sixpack" haymaker punch. The reasoning behind this is simply if you can handle the best (theoretically speaking) then dealing with Joe "sixpack" will be simple enough. We don't subscribe to the "This is what the average guy on the street is going to do" school of thought, rather "This is what a trained person can do to you".

a lot of people seem to think that the guy that likes to fight in the bar is just some drunk guy that swings his fists around. the truth is....a lot of guys that get in many bar fights tend to be pretty decent fighters.....and ive seen a lot of them wipe the floor with a lot of so called martial artists. they tend to be a lot tougher than people give them credit for.

if you really think that in your dojo your experiencing the best opponents that test your stuff both physically and mentally, dont kid yourself. just because someone is untrained in the classical sense of the word does not mean that dealing with them will be simple enough

 

[lulflo]

Hope it is okay to add from another MA in this thread**

I will use distraction in the form of a quick strike or kick to take an opponent's mind off of my goal of tying the individual up into a joint lock, take down or the like. For instance, I am not going to just grab some huge guy and try to do a wrist lock on him. I would probably try to soften his will by a quick strike to a pressure point or uppercut to his zyphoid process, etc. Or if I am stepping into him for a throw, I will try to land an elbow to his jaw or floating rib. That may be just the distraction needed to make the difference between successfully and not successfully applying techniques for locks and throws. If it is about striking and kicking, using multiple strikes such as the appearance of a fully intended strike to the lower body and then rolling up to a back fist to the chin could begin the follow through for techniques as stated above. Also for kicking, there are kicks that are deceptive in their own right, such as an instep kick or chin kick. The distractions that can be used to land a kick may be a quick jab to bring the opponent's block up slightly and then blast away with a side/front/chop kick. I believe strategy is a large part of dealing with a one-on-one or multiple opponent situation. Distraction can be part of an effective strategy (in my opinion).

Farang - Larry

 

[ShaneLayton]

ive numbered the points i want to address to make it easier.

1. while the ability to move quick is definitely important in martial arts........the ability to move on time and using proper distancing are far more important.

Agreed. Angling, distancing, rhythm and timing are far more important than speed alone.

take something like a neko ashi dachi......that particular stance has the majority of weight on one foot.....but it is a highly mobile kamae to any direction.

I'm not familiar with that kamae. Is it like hicho?

2. the purpose of this thread was discussing distraction. if someone is going to fight with you it is better to be preparatory rather than reactionary.

Common sense.

a good kamae is the first step in being preparatory, using visual distraction comes in a close second. by doing something like this you take the attacker out of their comfort zone by putting something near them that throws them off balance......not necassarily physically, but mentally.

Of course taking your opponent's balance is vital, both mentally and physically. When you say a good kamae are you referring to a physical stance or mental preparation? As I said earlier, we should always be in kamae. Kamae is a state of mind as well as physical manifestation. I think the mental is more important.

i do not fight defensively.....i only fight offensively, i do not take the mindset that i am being defensive.

It has been my experience that the Bujinkan is essentially defensive. Will you testify to your point of view in court? If you are asked that question directly, will you perjure yourself? Remember, we are not the only ones reading these boards. I hope you have a good personal liability policy.

3. easier said than done....just walking upto to someone and removing them is not making very good use of what you know.

We do it all the time. But, to be fair, we never fight fairly. We never fight one-on-one (at least not here). I'd rather spray you than fight you. I'd rather use my baton. And then I am going to restrain you and place you in a place you'd rather not be. We don't get paid to lose. We don't lose. We go home at the end of the shift. And we are defensive the entire time.

4. no one is goading anyone on to attack. if the person is already in the frame of mind to fight you have to take your opportunity to lead it as soon as it begins. simply placing your hand in front of someone is not an invitation to fight.....i have not touched them, nor have i harmed them in anyway.

While you may not be verbalizing the invitation to fight you are certainly sending that invitation by your body language. If the person is absolutely going to fight then you do what you have to. If he was just running his mouth and acting big in front of his drunk buddies and you show him that lack of respect, he may then feel that he must save face. If you were bouncing at the place you have to ask yourself why you are dealing with this patron. If its time for him leave, take control and make him leave. If all he's doing is being loud and challenging your "authority" leave him be.

I think most of us know that the average bar fighter is one tough opponent. They generally get into a lot of fights because thats how they enjoy themselves. They know alot about fighting, from the school of hard knocks as opposed to the dojo. They are not going to play by "dojo rules." We all understand that. Which is one of the reasons it is so important that we develop zanshin and avoid those situations. If you wind up having to fight this guy, remember, if you go home, you win.

Shane

 

[Kizaru]

We (well ok, I) think alot about distraction as, well, misdiretion to take an opponent's focus off me... while working on Muto Dori, abut the attacker's POV, and after considering it, I think that it goes along with the idea of creating a distraction... what do you guys think.... Like with the Mutodori, starting a cut, ... thinking "I have this guy, Im cutting him down in 1 blow..."

Is all distraction really just emotional manipulation, and what do you guys think of these types of manipulations when it comes to fighting?

This is example I'd like to present here may seem counterinuitive to some, but I'd like to put it out there anyway.

For the sake of arguement, let's say we're using the Muto Dori kata "Ichi Geki" from Gyokko ryu (it's on the video).

Instead of beginning from a distance where the swordsman can take one step and cut you, begin from a distance where it will take five steps. Bending your knees and sinking your hips so you're in a crouch, look at the distance from the center of his chest to the tip of his sword to gauge the distance he'll need to be able to hit you. Have the swordsman assume daijodan.

Now, instead of him intiating by moving towards you, you rush towards him in a crouch. This should accomplish two things:

1) By moving towards him, you're taking the initiative; you're controlling the rhythm...this would seem to be counterintuitive (rush a guy with a sword?!?!), but if you know the distance he needs to do damage to you, and you are in a situation where you need to go through him...well, doing the counterintuitive thing may distract him and
2) By crouching and making your body look smaller, you may fool the swordsman into a feeling of superiority, making him more commited in his attack.

Of course, you could also drill this with him moving towards you at the same time, but 2 bodies moving towards each other makes gauging the distance a little more complicated.

When you get to the "red zone" where you know he can get you, you can then expect the attack; if no attack comes, you can continue barrelling through, get a hand up under his left hand and land a strike into his xyphoid process or solar plexus to control the weapon and begin to disrupt his physical balance, then follow up with the kick (like in the basic kata).

From my perspective, controlling the distance and rhythm in this way as well as how you present yourself as a target are methods of distraction and misdirection when throwing around ideas on muto dori....of course, there's always the misdirection of appearing unarmed when you've got a bo shuriken, suntetsu, old rusty nail or a 5 dollar roll of quarters concealed in your palm (muto means "No Sword", not "No Weapon"

)


:asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Of course taking your opponent's balance is vital, both mentally and physically. When you say a good kamae are you referring to a physical stance or mental preparation? As I said earlier, we should always be in kamae. Kamae is a state of mind as well as physical manifestation. I think the mental is more important.

This is especially the case with Shinden Fudo ryu. However, that school also teaches that one should give the opponent the appearance of looking relaxed, uninterested and almost bored with him - i.e. you should try NOT to look like a martial artist. Having "no openings" can mean more than one thing.

It has been my experience that the Bujinkan is essentially defensive.

My experience has been mostly of the opposite. As someone said recently, "even a strategic retreat is nothing more than moving into a position from which you can kill the guy more easily."

 

[Don Roley]

Excuse me for asking this but.....

Why is Shawn and such contributing to this thread? There is value in getting other strategies and such from the viewpoint of another art. But this thread does seem to be devoted to the tactics and strategy of the Bujinkan way of doing things. Boxing and aikido are both fine arts. But you have to admit that they are built from the ground up on very different foundations.

So I am not trashing Kenpo, but I noticed that almost from the start that Shawn (blackcatbonz) started leading the conversation in a direction just a bit off from what I think the Bujinkan does. Kenpo does things one way, the Bujinkan another. Neither is bad, but to try to make one work in another without knowing the full picture of both could end up like Frankenstein's monster in being a patched together something that is not quite alive.

 

[Bigshadow]

if you really think that in your dojo your experiencing the best opponents that test your stuff both physically and mentally, dont kid yourself. just because someone is untrained in the classical sense of the word does not mean that dealing with them will be simple enough

Unfortunately what I said came off differently than I intended. That certainly was not what I was trying to say.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Excuse me for asking this but.....

Why is Shawn and such contributing to this thread? There is value in getting other strategies and such from the viewpoint of another art. But this thread does seem to be devoted to the tactics and strategy of the Bujinkan way of doing things. Boxing and aikido are both fine arts. But you have to admit that they are built from the ground up on very different foundations.

So I am not trashing Kenpo, but I noticed that almost from the start that Shawn (blackcatbonz) started leading the conversation in a direction just a bit off from what I think the Bujinkan does. Kenpo does things one way, the Bujinkan another. Neither is bad, but to try to make one work in another without knowing the full picture of both could end up like Frankenstein's monster in being a patched together something that is not quite alive.

don, the approach of kosho ryu kempo to evasion and distraction strategy is far different from something like epak or tracy's kenpo......it applies principle rather than technique. because most principles tend to be universal when governing human motion.......there is no wrong....just differing opinions created by people while trying to describe perhaps the same thing. happo no kuzushi tends to be one of these things.
the topic was distraction........and i related thusly.

 

[Don Roley]

don, the approach of kosho ryu kempo to evasion and distraction strategy is far different from something like epak or tracy's kenpo.....

And what I hear from you is different from what I was just translating for a Bujinkan shihan the other night. Yes there are things that tend to be universal. But the strategies of things like Aikido and Boxing tend to differ.

The starter of the thread posted it in not the general discusion section, but in the Japanese section- more specifically the Ninjutsu section. To be exact- the traditional ninjutsu section. And this section is supposed to be for disccussions of the art of ninjutsu as it is found in Japan. I take that to mean that he wanted a discussion of specificly Bujinkan ways of approaching the problem instead of the rather different way of going about things that I hear coming from you.

I am not saying it is bad, just a bit different from what I hear from the Japanese I train with.

 

[rutherford]

Don, I especially like how posts #3 and #27 go together. I think there was a good track going before the thread got into specific postures. Timing, exploring the role of the aggressor and taking the initiative, are all topics I'd like to ponder a bit more.

Can you tell us a bit about the conversation the other night?

 

[Don Roley]

Don, I especially like how posts #3 and #27 go together.

You mean you can't tell the fundemental difference between what BlackCatBonz wrote (#3) and what Kizaru wrote (#27)? I know they may seem to resemble each other. But the way a boxer makes a fist and the way we make fudoken also seems to resemble each other. And there are some very important differences in the ways both arts punch. And knowing those differences, as well as why they are different, is a very thing.

I am looking at the first post in this thread and it is a subject that I am familiar with in the Bujinkan. Some of the later comments in the thread are not.

Let me put it this way.... I know almost nothing about wine. I can't tell a Caberet Sauvingon (sp?) from a Pinot. To me they are red wines and I will happily sip things some people I know will turn their noses up at. And that is ok as far as I am concerned. I do not have to teach others the fine point of wines and the matter is not important enough to me to even try to become a master somlier.

But if I were to try to master the subject of wine, don't you think I would want to make sure that what I was told was a Pinot was a Pinot and not a Burgendy? In the Bujinkan we will probably have to teach people to repay the kindness of our teachers in the future and we owe it both to ourselves and any potential students to make sure that we get as pure an example as we can to learn from.

I like the way Kizaru pulled a specific example from a kata we did. There is so much to be learned from them. Yet that depends on the people doing them knowing what to do correctly as well as the reasons for them. You think that controlling a person's options and fooling him is not found in the kata? They can be taught without resorting to the kata, but if you do teach the kata I would hope you can make it alive by knowing why the uke kicks in Koku and you respond as you do instead of like in Renyo. I see people complain that Japanese teachers do the kata differently. But from my limited experience, they really are covering the important points and changing the small things like the way two native speakers of a language use correct grammer but don't phrase things the same way.

 

[lightninrod]

There's one sort of distraction that I don't see mentioned here which I picked up way back in the "Shadows of Iga" days. Many people here are talking about presenting openings in order to draw a specific attack, but what about attacking in a certain way in order to induce a specific defensive reaction in the opponent which isn't appropriate to what you're really doing.
For a simple example, lowering the hips and moving as though the gut is the intended target while looking at the stomach area will cause most people to instinctually lower their hands which opens them up completely for an upward moving throat/face strike which can be readily delivered from such movement. And, of course, when it connects from that angle, it has a strong lifting effect which sets up any number of takedowns. Likewise, moving in with high body english while focusing on the face sets most people up quite well for a gut punch.
Another example would be moving deliberately forward and outward at a 45 degree angle tends to make someone focus on where you are going rather than on the strike that's coming into their mid-section.
Now, these being such simple examples, it's easy to see how basic evasive body movement could foil them, but then that opens up another area of possibility which is simply causing them to move in the direction you want them to go in order to set them up for what you are really doing. The possibilities are pretty much endless.

Anyone who thinks ninpo is strictly defensive and focuses on it like that is missing out on a whole range of attack possibilities. After all, sometimes the best defense is a really good, deceptive offense.​

Just some food for thought.​

Justin Mears​