Bigshadow said this elsewhere and Id like to discuss it...

[Cryozombie]

That would have definitely been a distraction! HAHAHA

However, distraction and deception must never be overlooked. Anything from an unexpected punch to a unexpected movement can turn the tide.

I agree with the concept of distraction, and was thinking alot about what this means.

We (well ok, I) think alot about distraction as, well, misdiretion to take an opponent's focus off me... maybe a quick glance over their shoulder, or throwing coins in their face, etc, etc... I'm sure everyone has favorite distraction techniques... well, on Sunday, I brought up a question to my instructor while working on Muto Dori, abut the attacker's POV, and after considering it, I think that it goes along with the idea of creating a distraction... what do you guys think...

The idea was that in certain situations, you want to make your attacker really COMMIT to their attack, so that in mid-attack they dont stop and change it up suddenly... Like with the Mutodori, starting a cut, realizing you are ready to defend, and then changing the cut to avoid your defense... but to get the attacker to really "go for" the cut... if you get my meaning. And he talked about things that may make them WANT to go for that cut... thinking "I have this guy, Im cutting him down in 1 blow..." and I got to thinking about that last night... in and of itself, that can be a sort of "distraction" (or maybe the idea of a reverse distraction???) to try an elicit a specific response from an attacker like looking over their shoulder and saying "KILL HIM BOB!" loudly might do...

Am I making sense?

Is all distraction really just emotional manipulation, and what do you guys think of these types of manipulations when it comes to fighting?

 

[Bigshadow]

A simple term for it would be distraction, but if you really think about it, it is gaining control of the situation.

For instance, in a normal situation, the attacker acts by attacking and the defender reacts because they are not in control of the situation. On the other hand if we present an easy target or cause a distraction we are now acting and the attacker is reacting (unknowingly).

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think one of the most important things in any confrontation is for the person being attacked to turn into the attacker. you dont want to follow your attackers movements, you want them to follow you. if they ask to dance, you lead.
the most important thing in dancing is footwork. using tai-sabaki you put your opponent in the position of following you around, but you do it in a manner that keeps him off balanced and fighting on angles that make it difficult to generate power.
this for me is the best method of distraction.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For instance, in a normal situation, the attacker acts by attacking and the defender reacts because they are not in control of the situation. On the other hand if we present an easy target or cause a distraction we are now acting and the attacker is reacting (unknowingly).

One thing I've been hearing regularly since the beginning of 2004 is that you must be in kamae before your attacker. Yugen no seikai...

 

[Bigshadow]

i think one of the most important things in any confrontation is for the person being attacked to turn into the attacker. you dont want to follow your attackers movements, you want them to follow you. if they ask to dance, you lead.
the most important thing in dancing is footwork. using tai-sabaki you put your opponent in the position of following you around, but you do it in a manner that keeps him off balanced and fighting on angles that make it difficult to generate power.
this for me is the best method of distraction.

Tai-sabaki is definitely an important part of the equation. If I understand what you wrote correctly, in the dojo we call that "crossing the T" from the military strategy. Exerting force and direction tangent to their stability. Although, I think this is a small but important part of distraction and control. I guess the thing I would be concerned about is (like dancing) is getting into this rythm of 1 & 2 & 3. There are times we want to move on a half beat where the attacker feels 1 & 2 and we do 1 & 1.5 which completely shatters the rythm they expect, this is also distraction.

Of course it is difficult to articulate this stuff that is why it is better left to the dojo and the instructors (which I am not).

 

[Bigshadow]

One thing I've been hearing regularly since the beginning of 2004 is that you must be in kamae before your attacker. Yugen no seikai...

But aren't you always in kamae?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Tai-sabaki is definitely an important part of the equation. If I understand what you wrote correctly, in the dojo we call that "crossing the T" from the military strategy. Exerting force and direction tangent to their stability. Although, I think this is a small but important part of distraction and control. I guess the thing I would be concerned about is (like dancing) is getting into this rythm of 1 & 2 & 3. There are times we want to move on a half beat where the attacker feels 1 & 2 and we do 1 & 1.5 which completely shatters the rythm they expect, this is also distraction.

Of course it is difficult to articulate this stuff that is why it is better left to the dojo and the instructors (which I am not).

rhythm is very important......but you need to be dancing to frank zappa while they are moving to britney spears.

 

[Bigshadow]

rhythm is very important......but you need to be dancing to frank zappa while they are moving to britney spears.

Good one, I like that!

 

[ShaneLayton]

I attended a seminar in February of this year where the focus (the first day) was Kukishin ryu happo biken (kenjutsu). It was taught by Shidoshi Jay Zimmerman. One of the points that Jay emphasized was using your tachi as a shield. If you do this properly, then you will have to purposely give your uke a weak spot to attack. By giving a certain suki then you limit the ways in which your uke can attack and you have control of the situation. You control the spacing (while letting him think he does) and you defeat him. Your change must be subtle, though, because if your opponent detects a sudden opening he may not bite. Also remember he may be doing the same thing to you (this idea is not unique to the Kukishin ryu). The same principle holds true for unarmed taijutsu. A good opponent is not going to attack you while you are well-guarded. You must give him a target that he thinks he can successfully exploit.

Kamae is a state of mind as well as a physical posture. If you have trained yourself to keep focused yet aware (zanshin) then yes, you are always in kamae. If not, then no, but you should be .

Just my 2 cents, probably not even worth that much.

Shane

 

[BlackCatBonz]

being a bouncer for awhile i learned that an angry attacker will usually take whatever opening you throw at them....regardless of how it appears. ive held my hand up right in front of their face knowing they would grab it so i could apply a wristlock, armlock or lead to a control that i could use to move them.
a proper kamae for this situation would not be in your best ready to fight pose, but rather a relaxed posture leaning naturally on one leg with your hands chest height like people do when they talk with their hands.
this natural resting posture is used by almost every human on the planet and we often shift back and forth. look at this as your bodies natural way of escape.
so, when standing naturally leaning to one side you have given your opponent a) a target and b) yourself an avenue of escape.
so by using proper kamae, hyoshi, and ma ai you're already 3 steps ahead of your opponent before he even has a chance to get a shot off.

 

[Bigshadow]

a proper kamae for this situation would not be in your best ready to fight pose, but rather a relaxed posture leaning naturally on one leg with your hands chest height like people do when they talk with their hands.

I would agree with most of that except the "leaning" thing. As I have been trained that is "telegraphing", because by leaning you are now shifting your balance to one leg, which means you are not free to move in any direction, at which point it is easier to determine what your going to have to do to regain your balance. I agree with the hands up palm out approach, these are your shields. They can present openings and not. Another point you elluded to was moving. Don't anchor yourself. Constantly be moving (within balance), this will make your actions faster.

For an example of what I am talking about by all this nonsense about leaning, balance and moving. Do this... Stand with your feet about shoulders width apart or bit further. Try picking up one foot then the other without shifting your hips from one side to the other. More than likely if you are human, you will have to move your hips toward one foot to get the opposite one up. Now bring you feet closer together where your feet are a little less than shoulders with apart. You should now be able to pick up either leg at will without shifting the hips from one side or the other. This is balance. The time it takes for you to shift your hips from one side or the other can turn an action into a reaction.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

im going to have to disagree with you on this one.
i do not know if you understand what i mean about leaning. i do not mean it in the literal sense where one would be leaning noticeably to one side or the other. i am talking about the leaning that a person does when they are standing in line at a bank or grocery store.
you can easily move in any direction from this posture because it is completely natural.
one can stay completely balanced with both feet close together and are able to lift one foot or the other off the floor without moving, but that does not mean that it is the most effective posture to move from.
movement is a falling process......and if one is perfectly balanced, they will have to move in order to fall.
if i am standing in a natural position resting on one leg......ive already started moving.

 

[Bigshadow]

movement is a falling process......

This I totally agree with.

and if one is perfectly balanced, they will have to move in order to fall.

If movement is falling then falling is moving....

From a balanced position it is just a matter of falling into the place you need. No need to move, just fall. Or is it move?

I have a feeling we may be talking about the same thing but describing it slightly different.

 

[ShaneLayton]

being a bouncer for awhile i learned that an angry attacker will usually take whatever opening you throw at them....regardless of how it appears. ive held my hand up right in front of their face knowing they would grab it so i could apply a wristlock, armlock or lead to a control that i could use to move them.

I've never been a bouncer so I'm not qualified to postulate about what a "good" kamae would be in a given situation. If I understand the posture your referring to its more one of standing with all your weight on one leg, with you hips shifted to the direction of your support leg. I think that moving quickly from such a posture would be difficult, especially if it requires a drastic change of direction. I think you could cross yourself up there. In my line of work I face people daily who would rather see me dead. I tend to stand slightly bladed and just out of arms reach, with my primary weapon away from them. My feet are more like what BigShadow referred to (a bladed shizen no kamae) with my hands at about waist level.

I think that goading a bad guy into putting hands on so that you can justify using a physical control technique might place you on shaky legal ground, especially if he gets hurt. I know there are a lot of bouncers who are basically paid thugs just waiting to beat somebody up. I'm not referring to you or anyone else specific here, but I do know there are a good number of that type in that profession. If you are justified in physically removing the individual then just take control of him and move him. Trying to goad him into attacking you places you in a precarious position, not only legally, but physically. What if he wins?

That may be worth 1 1/2 cents.

Shane

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But aren't you always in kamae?

If that were true, then this thread would probably be a moot point. No one attacks if they don't think they can score a hit.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Good one, I like that!

People have said about me that it sometimes looks like I think I'm Usher...:ultracool

 

[Bigshadow]

being a bouncer for awhile i learned that an angry attacker will usually take whatever opening you throw at them....regardless of how it appears. ive held my hand up right in front of their face knowing they would grab it so i could apply a wristlock, armlock or lead to a control that i could use to move them.

Reading Shane's post brought something to mind. In our dojo we train with the thought that the attacker IS trained and is GOOD at it! We don't train with the thought in mind that this is good enough for the average joe "sixpack" haymaker punch. The reasoning behind this is simply if you can handle the best (theoretically speaking) then dealing with Joe "sixpack" will be simple enough. We don't subscribe to the "This is what the average guy on the street is going to do" school of thought, rather "This is what a trained person can do to you".

 

[Bigshadow]

If that were true, then this thread would probably be a moot point. No one attacks if they don't think they can score a hit.

You should always be in Kamae. I am. Aren't you?

Honestly, we may have a miscommunication of kamae.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You should always be in Kamae. I am. Aren't you?

Honestly, we may have a miscommunication of kamae.

I hope for your sake that people strike at you with the intention of hitting while training...

 

[ShaneLayton]

I hope for your sake that people strike at you with the intention of hitting while training...

Do we have a "How to be a good uke" thread? I think this is a topic for that thread. My search did not turn one up.

Shane