Politics, Belt Rankings, and Truth

[FasterthanDeath]

Over the weekend a friend of mine asked me to attend a Belt testing by an organization of four people. One was a man who created his own art and his two highest belts with him, the last one was of a man who invented Tenjindo. Now for those of you who dont wonder to the other parts of the Forum , Tenjindo is a Ninjitsu based art and the original post caused for the thread to be locked. But thats neither here nor there, there was a group of men who were testing the individuals, and the first three, really good. Explained every step in everything that they did, gave the reason why they did it and variations on the "what if" factor. Now the last guy. Now before you think that I had posted this in the wrong thread let me just say that my concern is that of self-defense. He started his test and immediately they began to grill him on "wasted movements" and uneccesary movements. He didnt explain anything at all very well, I dont think he knew what he was doing. But in the area of self-defense, it was horrible. I mean we all know that noone is going to stand there and let me throw them. You have to distract them or strike first, even then it has to have some type of stunning effect or you just wont get the throw off. I would say all but 3 of his techniques had throws with no strikes or distractions or physical dynamics in them at all. So the test continued and it moved to board breaking. Oh yeah by the way he was going for his 5th dan. He could not break four boards, so he took one off and he broke three. He could not do a jumping spinning side kick to break two boards. And he did a flying jump kick to break 2 boards over three people kneeling. Now what does that have to do with self-defense? I have no idea. So it moved on to 3 vs 1 sparring. He couldnt handle it at all. Two of the people he was sparring was his students and one his wife, and he still could not handle it. Then it was 4 vs 1 and in the end he was made to tap 3 times and could not even stand up. This was 2 mins of sparring. But in the end he did recieve the promotion. Of course by a group of men headed by a good friend of his. Now here is my question to the great people of this forum, actually its multiple questions, 1. If you created an art, would you or would you not automatically be 10th dan grandmaster and founder? 2. If you are a 4th dan in your system and you cannot pass the tests that you created, should you be promoted, let alone credited? 3. If it was a fair and just group of individuals who were judging you, and they were all Grandmasters themselves, do you actually think they would promote you on your failure? It really doesnt make any sense to me. Why two "Grandmasters" would then go to a board and have themselves demoted and then recongnized by people who have never seen their art before, and if they were also Grandmasters who gave that title/rank to them? I am guessing themselves. I think in the MA world you have two types. Those who play together, and those who dont. You stick together and you can make more money and have more people supporting you than if you just stray out and teach your own art byyourself. But in that process alot of true Self-defense is lost. Please, your opinions.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval. Additionally there is nothing new under the sun just about every know way of how the human body reacts to puches, kicks, holds, etc... have been explored over 1000's of years. So there is nothing new to be added. The only thing that can be done is to mix and remix current Martial Arts systems.

I would suspect that this "art" you watched will die as most new movements due.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[MichiganTKD]

I believe in the "natural selection" theory of styles. Legitimate styles will proper because they offer useful training that people want. Fraudulant styles that have no real foundation and are headed by people with questionable backgrounds will perish for the reason stated above.
Now, if I found a new style and it stands on its own, why do I need the approval of some Grandmasters' Organization made of a mish-mosh of different arts? There are several organizations which I'm sure many are familiar with that are composed of "Grandmasters" of various styles. Believe me, I don't seek or need their approval. Won Kuk Lee, Ueshiba, and Choi didn't go to some questionable Grandmasters' Organization to get approval. They had a valuable, useful product that stood on its own.
Like a plant, a worthwhile art that is properly nurtured will grow.

 

[kenpo tiger]

There are styles out there founded by people who were masters in others and branched out to start their own, usually a conglomeration of everything they've trained in. I assume you are judging the merit of the style by its intrinsic value. Some of these 'arts' are financial successes because they are marketed well and have excellent financial consortia behind them (see McDojo thread!)

I think one also needs to examine whether it's a new art due to having a new take on an old one (the various kenpo systems) or a completely new concept.

I did some fight training with a choi le fut master. He said: "we all have two hands and two feet and there are only so many ways we can utilize them." :asian: KT

 

[Brother John]

Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval. Additionally there is nothing new under the sun just about every know way of how the human body reacts to puches, kicks, holds, etc... have been explored over 1000's of years. So there is nothing new to be added. The only thing that can be done is to mix and remix current Martial Arts systems.

I would suspect that this "art" you watched will die as most new movements due.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

Hey Mark.
Sorry to seem so antagonistic here, but I must respectfully disagree with the "There's nothing new under the sun" concept as it applies to the martial arts. This statement taken from the Old Testament is often used in this context to say that no one can create or innovate any 'new' thing. I'd say it depends on how you look at 'new'.
The elements of body mechanics are the same for me as they were for Adam... I just own more clothes. :uhyeah: But our four limbs, head and torso can move in a many many ways and along a myriad of planes/trajectories. These could be compared to the different elements on the periodic table. http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/periodic/periodic.html
Now these are the same elements that were here when God started the whole ball a rollin... there aren't truely any new ones. (OK scientist types, there are theoretical elements...but they are RARE and by comparison virtually NON-existant) Yet by recombining them in different ways we've come up with Tylenol, Zythromax, Zoloft, Petrolium jelly, sex wax (ask a surfer), Coppertone, LSD, Rocket Fuel, Vics Vaporub, anabolic steriods, Viagra, medicinal nitroglycerin...etc. You're a nurse, you know MANY more than these. Yet...the periodic table hasn't really changed...at least not the elements it represents.
Now: the analogy. To say that no one can create a new art is like saying that we will never again rearange the elements to form new drugs or chemicals. We can, we do...we will.

Something to think about.
Your Brother
John

 

[Mark Weiser]

Well when it comes to Medicine here is a bit of info for you all. Did you know that on average there are about 200 new drugs that are but out on the market each and every year LOL!

Talk about a Pharamcist worst nightmare lol!

Anyway I was just going back to what I have been told from other teachers there are only so many ways that you can kick, punch, Grab, throw,etc.... and since human beings have been practicing MA for 1000's of years. It is only logical that everything has been tried at least once LOL!

Anyway it is difficult (pride) to acknowledge that we may or may not see new Martial Art systems coming forth. I for one have enough problems learning one system let alone trying to start a new one lol!

Anyways just as in life one is entitled to ones opinion but I will give you a quote that my Grandfather once said lol!!

"Sir you are entitled to your opinion even though you are wrong!"

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

Watching out for incoming rounds lol!

 

[Brother John]

Anyways just as in life one is entitled to ones opinion but I will give you a quote that my Grandfather once said lol!!

"Sir you are entitled to your opinion even though you are wrong!"

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser QUOTE]

I like your gramp's quote.

Your Bro.
John

 

[tshadowchaser]

People who get a "Sokeship" or start their own systems tend to stick togeather. Many times they cross rank each other in their respective systems.
Should a person begiven rank if he can not pass a test , (IMHO) No.
Can an instructor set up test requiremnt that he may not be able to pass? Mayby but it would depend on his age, physical condition, and a few other things. If he is fairly young and physicaly able he should be able to or not have the rank to give such a test. (again IMO)
Testing in front of friends that all belong to the same click only says your friends and that it is all in show (provieding you fail misserably and still pass)

 

[DavidCC]

ust becasue you ahve developed your own style does not mean that you should be a 10th dan.

The President of the schools where I train has developed his own "version" of Shaolin Kempo based on what he had studied : Villari, Cerio, and Goju with Lou Angel. He has only recently attained the rank of 6th Dan, as evaluated by Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel.

The performance you describe, FTD, is embarrassing, and I would not have passed him. THat's just my opinion based on your description...

David

 

[ppko]

ust becasue you ahve developed your own style does not mean that you should be a 10th dan.

The President of the schools where I train has developed his own "version" of Shaolin Kempo based on what he had studied : Villari, Cerio, and Goju with Lou Angel. He has only recently attained the rank of 6th Dan, as evaluated by Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel.

The performance you describe, FTD, is embarrassing, and I would not have passed him. THat's just my opinion based on your description...

David

I agree when you create your own style you should not be ranked a 10th dan that comes from your instructor and usually only given to the successor of the art (depends on the art). But when you create your own art you have the authority to rank your students up to 10th dan.

PPKO

thats my oppinion and I am sticking to it

 

[loki09789]

I agree when you create your own style you should not be ranked a 10th dan that comes from your instructor and usually only given to the successor of the art (depends on the art). But when you create your own art you have the authority to rank your students up to 10th dan.

PPKO

thats my oppinion and I am sticking to it

The down side to a lack of a ruling/regulatory organization that really as executive/administrative decision is that anyone can hang a shingle and claim to be teaching/founding anything they want. There is nothing to stop them from doing this. People can say "Screw this, I am doing it my way" and make up titles/rank/structures as they see fit. The question isn't really whether it should or should not be done, or is it 'allowed' because the organizations like the Sokeship council really only acknowledges/endorses those instructors/systems that petition them and they see as in depth enough and valid enough to be given their nod.

If they don't kiss him on the forehead and bless the instructor he can still go out and promote/teach this stuff. They are not a 'ruling body' of any kind.

The real question is what would give the new system and its founder legitimate claim to the general community (because there will always be nay sayers about EVERYTHING - especially in the ego driven community of Martial arts)?

The question isn't whether it CAN be done but how should it be done with any degree of integrity, validity and credibility?

 

[ppko]

well said


PPKO

 

[brothershaw]

2 Cents-
To have a true ranking system across all styles-
you would practically need the military to do it.
Why? You would need an objective body to evaluate the combat, and physical value of a given style, then set up abitrary cross gradings of rank.
Sort of like a an admiral in the navy is the equivalent of a 2 or 3 star general.
Also like how the military looks at the designs of different companies for contracts and picks the best ( supposedly). ALso they only use the best methods for combat (supposedly).

So I guess what I am saying is it will probably never happen. Because a chinese styleist will say a japanese stylist has no right to judge my style and so on, and so on.
To me even the sokeship council thing is suspect.
However regarding many styles its often said there were hundreds of jujitsu schools in japan,in samurai times. I am pretty sure alot of these schools just had variations of the same general technique. What can define a style is not the variation but the general ruling principles that it adheres to ( i.e. small circle jujitsu).
So basically if I had a point I no longer remember what it is !!

 

[MichiganTKD]

To my knowledge, not even Won Kuk Lee, Gen. Choi, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba gave themselves 10th Dan in anything. Anyone has the right to claim to teach their own style. Natural selection will decide whether their decision was correct or not. However, to claim 10th Dan in your own style or 9th Dan in an organization you founded smacks of insecurity and the need for personal validation. In other words, they claim 10th Dan because they need the ego trip and want people to take them seriously. It seems to me, if what you teach is valid, what rank you are wouldn't matter.
Not that I'm advocating 2nd Dans creating their own style BTW. Happens too often as it is.

 

[Andrew Green]

I believe in the "natural selection" theory of styles. Legitimate styles will proper because they offer useful training that people want. Fraudulant styles that have no real foundation and are headed by people with questionable backgrounds will perish for the reason stated above.

WOuld be nice, but I think you made a mistake on what aspect of the style counts towards the natural selection.

You said "useful training", in reality it is "Sales & Marketing" to new AND existing students.

 

[Flatlander]

WOuld be nice, but I think you made a mistake on what aspect of the style counts towards the natural selection.

You said "useful training", in reality it is "Sales & Marketing" to new AND existing students.

I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.

As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.

Reputation is not bought, it is earned.

 

[Ceicei]

I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.

As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.

Reputation is not bought, it is earned.

Solid points!!

- Ceicei

 

[Eternal Beginner]

I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.

As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.

Reputation is not bought, it is earned.

AMEN!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval.

It must be?

Who says?

I recognize that there are a lot of "grandmasters" out there that are frauds, but the notion that a person must be recognized by several other grandmasters to be a grandmaster of his own system sounds a little suspect to me. This allows for political appointments that have nothing to do with the talent of the applicant. Endorsements of such certifications could take place without a test ever being given or a proper review of the person's credentials.

The title of "grandmaster" isn't only applied to those who start their own systems or who claim 10 dan. Some Korean organizations recognize a grandmaster as someone of eighth or ninth dan.

Can anyone name any reputable masters/grandmasters who started their own systems without the endorsement of other masters/grandmasters? Feel free to nix the title of grandmaster and substitue "founder" or "soke" or whatever you like.

We often find that the ones who deny a grandmaster's title are political antagonists of the person in question. They alledge the person is a fraud...like many of the actual frauds out there...or say he isn't fully qualified for the credentials he claims.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Flatlander]

AMEN!

Eternal Beginner, welcome to Martial Talk! Help yourself to the feast of great information available in the various fora. Should you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Happy posting!