Biggest martial art bs stories

Hanzou

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Correct me it I am wrong but you chose the throat analogy. There are distinct difference in striking versus grappling training. But surely you understand there are tools like a BOB that allow a person to train strikes are full speed AND drills with resistance that allow you to practice an endless amount of scenarios. There is never only ONE way to do a strike/attack/submission right?

A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.

So when you are rolling do you do a Kimura lock the exact same way Only when you and your partner are in one specific position? Of course not. But that is exactly how you are framing certain TMA training. You have to think bigger/higher than that. If a person cannot do that I suspect they are going to suck at whatever style they practice.

Grappling has the advantage that we can go full blast without significantly harming each other. Thus, I can attempt multiple entries and locks at full speed without harming my partner. The more advanced we get, the faster we can go (which ironically also ends up slowing the pace). This translates into a self defense situation because I can apply my technique pretty much the same way I do in training. If I'm constantly catching Purple and Brown belts with Kimuras for example, the untrained moron attacking me really doesn't stand much of a chance.

Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

Add to that techniques you can never fully train with like throat jabs and eye gouges, and you've just increased that disadvantage by a ton. You're simply spitting into the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back into your face.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?



Of course.



What?



Where did I ever say I did?



No it's not. If I'm rolling with someone and catch them in a Kimura and they tap out, I got them in a Kimura. Why? Because if I keep going in the direction I was going, their shoulder will be dislocated. Keep in mind, I'm rolling against skinny people, huge people, fat people, fit people, short people, tall people, and everyone in between. So if I'm catching all of those people with my Kimura lock, chances are I'll catch someone in a Kimura lock trying to cave my face in, regardless of the variables.

That's quite a bit different than theories about throat strikes and eye gouges that you've never done.
I'll just point out that you're the one who went to throat punches. I ran with the example you gave, since that's what you wanted to talk about. I was referring more to things like locks/breaks that don't really have good competition/rolling application, because there's too little distance between "I don't feel that" and "broken".
 

Gerry Seymour

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A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.



Grappling has the advantage that we can go full blast without significantly harming each other. Thus, I can attempt multiple entries and locks at full speed without harming my partner. The more advanced we get, the faster we can go (which ironically also ends up slowing the pace). This translates into a self defense situation because I can apply my technique pretty much the same way I do in training. If I'm constantly catching Purple and Brown belts with Kimuras for example, the untrained moron attacking me really doesn't stand much of a chance.

Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

Add to that techniques you can never fully train with like throat jabs and eye gouges, and you've just increased that disadvantage by a ton. You're simply spitting into the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back into your face.
You're now into a whole other realm that seems outside the scope of where this started.
 

Hanzou

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I'll just point out that you're the one who went to throat punches. I ran with the example you gave, since that's what you wanted to talk about. I was referring more to things like locks/breaks that don't really have good competition/rolling application, because there's too little distance between "I don't feel that" and "broken".

Well those were the techniques Isshin and I were talking about.

In terms of locks/breaks that don't have a good competition/rolling application, those would also be in the realm of hopes and dreams in terms of application.
 

Yokozuna514

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Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

You have no idea what you are talking about. This may be true for some striking arts but it is not true for all of them. Remove the intensity of real sparring and you remove the consequences. Yes it is true, that we do have equipment now that will allow us to protect ourselves from injury but nothing teaches you to block a leg kick better than getting a good one so over reliance on equipment is not the answer either. Train safely but the need to train at 100% is also important.
 

Hanzou

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You have no idea what you are talking about. This may be true for some striking arts but it is not true for all of them. Remove the intensity of real sparring and you remove the consequences.

Then you also remove/reduce the effectiveness of sparring.

Yes it is true, that we do have equipment now that will allow us to protect ourselves from injury but nothing teaches you to block a leg kick better than getting a good one so over reliance on equipment is not the answer either. Train safely but the need to train at 100% is also important.

Like I said, that is the inherent disadvantage of striking arts. You simply can't go full blast without causing significant injuries, so you have to constantly pull your attacks. Padding and protection allows you to ramp up the intensity, but it still isn't close to the real thing as getting hit with flesh and bone. Again, I can go full speed an pressure in grappling and (outside of throws) not really worry about injuring myself. If I go full speed striking without protection, I can not only seriously injure my partner, but I can also seriously injure myself. Add on to this people not really wanting to walk around with black eyes, busted lips, and bruises, and you have the general disadvantage of striking arts.

Now add something like throat striking or eye gouging to the equation; Techniques you've NEVER really used in any context beyond hitting a dummy or doing the motion in a kata. You might as well forget they exist.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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Well those were the techniques Isshin and I were talking about.

In terms of locks/breaks that don't have a good competition/rolling application, those would also be in the realm of hopes and dreams in terms of application.
The locks without rolling application do have similar problems, but aren't really "hopes and dreams" things. You can practice them slowly to submission, or fast, but releasing the hold rather than finishing. The one I'm thinking about I've actually seen result in accidental breaks twice, and I know of a third instance. And the mechanics of getting to it are very similar to some techniques that can be practiced at full speed. There's one I think is called the Russian wrist snap that can be used off the same mechanics, so that's the kind of thing you do with it in sparring. With ones that don't have any good, close neighbors like that, all you can really do is make an intellectual study of it to get an understanding of what it does to the joint, then practice the movements to build some "muscle memory" (felt pattern recognition) in case the right situation shows up. There are locks I haven't practiced in decades (from back in my Judo days) that show up sometimes when I'm rolling, based on this kind of pattern recognition.
 

Yokozuna514

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If I go full speed striking without protection, I can not only seriously injure my partner, but I can also seriously injure myself. Add on to this people not really wanting to walk around with black eyes, busted lips, and bruises, and you have the general disadvantage of striking arts.

Seems to me you are dramatically overestimating yourself here. Although you can injure your partner and injure yourself going 100% you are missing one key element, which is self-discipline. Just because you could do it, doesn't mean you should. Going 100% using every possible technique to win is not the point of the exercise. Most people train to better themselves and push their limits. No one trains to be injured or maimed. I have come across people like you who 'break em unless they tap' or 'go for the joints' to win type. They don't typically make good partners and they quickly run out of people that want to train with them because who wants to train with someone who has no self-control and sees the only point of training hard is to 'hurt' or injure their training partners ? What happens if you get into a particularly intense roll and you miss the tap ?

Perhaps you have found some place where you can practice 100% intensity with 100% of available techniques in a manner where you and your partners are not getting injured and maimed. Why not tell everyone where that place is so that they can see that for themselves and see the benefits of what you are talking about ?
 

Hanzou

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Seems to me you are dramatically overestimating yourself here. Although you can injure your partner and injure yourself going 100% you are missing one key element, which is self-discipline. Just because you could do it, doesn't mean you should. Going 100% using every possible technique to win is not the point of the exercise. Most people train to better themselves and push their limits. No one trains to be injured or maimed.

And it seems you have dramatically missed the point. My point is that since you're not going 100% when you're punching and kicking, that decreases the effectiveness of your sparring. You're not really dealing with getting punched in the face. You're not really dealing with your fists getting sliced open on someone's teeth. You're not dealing with your foot slamming into someone's elbow at full speed, etc. Sure self discipline is important, but over time that consistent pulling of your technique in order to protect your partners ends up hurting your overall effectiveness. Now, the slow, pulling punches aspect of sparring exists in Boxing and Muay Thai as well, but they also have the full blast variety of sparring where you're getting hit, hard, and no one is pulling their punches.

There's certainly room for the disciplined, play fighting, but any striking style worth its salt should also provide the full contact variety of sparring as well. If not, you're seriously hindering yourself in the long run.

I have come across people like you who 'break em unless they tap' or 'go for the joints' to win type. They don't typically make good partners and they quickly run out of people that want to train with them because who wants to train with someone who has no self-control and sees the only point of training hard is to 'hurt' or injure their training partners ? What happens if you get into a particularly intense roll and you miss the tap ?

Like I said, you've dramatically missed the point. To answer your question, in the years of me practicing BJJ, the only times I snapped someone's limbs is when they spazzed out to attempt to escape an Americana, or attempted to roll through a lock, pretty much breaking their own bones in the process. I really can't think of a particular lock (outside of leg locks) where you can just slap it on and cause an instant break. Typically joint locks require you to begin to pull the limb in a certain direction, almost like a lever. If I'm going hard in a roll and achieve the Kimura lock for example, I wouldn't immediately torque the lock, I would gradually apply pressure until I get the tap. The beauty of joint locks is that fast or slow, if you have the position you're going to get the same result regardless, so there's no need to yank the lock once you have it.

Interestingly, in a self defense situation I found myself in, I applied a lock in a similar manner; Gradual pressure in order to control my assailant until help arrived.

Perhaps you have found some place where you can practice 100% intensity with 100% of available techniques in a manner where you and your partners are not getting injured and maimed. Why not tell everyone where that place is so that they can see that for themselves and see the benefits of what you are talking about ?

Your local Bjj school should suffice.
 

Buka

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A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.



Grappling has the advantage that we can go full blast without significantly harming each other. Thus, I can attempt multiple entries and locks at full speed without harming my partner. The more advanced we get, the faster we can go (which ironically also ends up slowing the pace). This translates into a self defense situation because I can apply my technique pretty much the same way I do in training. If I'm constantly catching Purple and Brown belts with Kimuras for example, the untrained moron attacking me really doesn't stand much of a chance.

Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

Add to that techniques you can never fully train with like throat jabs and eye gouges, and you've just increased that disadvantage by a ton. You're simply spitting into the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back into your face.

There's a difference, though. You're a larger man, I'm a smaller man. I'm very relaxed when I roll, I'm very relaxed when I'm striking.

But when I'm rolling with a much larger person, and we start to go full blast, sometimes things rip and hurt for a significant amount of time afterwards. In striking, I don't care how full blast a much larger fighter goes. I'll ask them to take it easy. Maybe even twice. But it really doesn't matter as I know what he's going to throw before he does. I've been reading strikers for a very long time.

So, it depends.
 

Hanzou

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There's a difference, though. You're a larger man, I'm a smaller man. I'm very relaxed when I roll, I'm very relaxed when I'm striking.

But when I'm rolling with a much larger person, and we start to go full blast, sometimes things rip and hurt for a significant amount of time afterwards. In striking, I don't care how full blast a much larger fighter goes. I'll ask them to take it easy. Maybe even twice. But it really doesn't matter as I know what he's going to throw before he does. I've been reading strikers for a very long time.

So, it depends.

That is a fair point. When I roll with women and smaller men, that is definitely something I have to take into consideration given my size. I will say that level of intensity is something that needs to be agreed upon by both parties. I've had ex-Wrestlers and Football players ask me to go slow, while I had women I outweigh by over 100lbs ask me to go all in.
 

dvcochran

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A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.



Grappling has the advantage that we can go full blast without significantly harming each other. Thus, I can attempt multiple entries and locks at full speed without harming my partner. The more advanced we get, the faster we can go (which ironically also ends up slowing the pace). This translates into a self defense situation because I can apply my technique pretty much the same way I do in training. If I'm constantly catching Purple and Brown belts with Kimuras for example, the untrained moron attacking me really doesn't stand much of a chance.

Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

Add to that techniques you can never fully train with like throat jabs and eye gouges, and you've just increased that disadvantage by a ton. You're simply spitting into the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back into your face.
Yea, you just went from being silly and biased to plain stupid. Sorry for that but it is what it is.
Thinking there is only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself is exactly what got some TMAs a bad rap. Non-sensible bs.
 

Hanzou

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Yea, you just went from being silly and biased to plain stupid. Sorry for that but it is what it is.
Thinking there is only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself is exactly what got some TMAs a bad rap. Non-sensible bs.

Where did I say that there was only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself?
 

dvcochran

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Where did I say that there was only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself?
Your posts are laced with inference. You are a BJJ guy you and keep the same theme going as most BJJ'ers, that they are superior in every fighting/self defense category. A pretty narrow point of view. Fighters, grapple, punch, block, kick, and more. That is a pretty wide set of tools so maybe your roll only style does have some gaps? And you self defense analogies against TMA training are just, well hilarious. I have not grappled heavily since college but have used my self defense training many, many times as a LEO so, that dog does not hunt.
 

Hanzou

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Your posts are laced with inference. You are a BJJ guy you and keep the same theme going as most BJJ'ers, that they are superior in every fighting/self defense category.

If you honestly think that's what I'm saying in my posts, then you simply haven't been paying attention. In this particular case I use BJJ as my main counter example because that's the art in which I have the most experience outside of Karate. However, I don't believe that BJJ is superior in every fighting/self defense category, and if anyone asks me I would happily tell them to have BJJ as their base art and cross train in a dedicated striking art like Muay Thai or standard Boxing.

A pretty narrow point of view. Fighters, grapple, punch, block, kick, and more. That is a pretty wide set of tools so maybe your roll only style does have some gaps? And you self defense analogies against TMA training are just, well hilarious. I have not grappled heavily since college but have used my self defense training many, many times as a LEO so, that dog does not hunt.

Well to be fair, my background in BJJ is from Relson Gracie JJ which is heavily self defense based. I also have a black belt in karate, so yes, I know how to deal with blocks, kicks, punches, and more. Frankly, I felt that BJJ dealt with counter striking far better than Karate did, and if I could do it all over again, I would have wrestled in high school and spent my years in Karate doing Boxing or MT instead, picking up BJJ in pretty much the same time frame that I did.

Anyway, I know that not everyone who trains in BJJ has my background, which is why I recommend cross training in a striking art. Would I recommend traditional Karate? Not if Muay Thai or Boxing is available. If Karate is all you have, then you do what you gotta do.
 
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