Biggest martial art bs stories

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
3,146
That tends to happen when you're in a striking art, and you're never really hit.
I agree. originally typed out that very same thing and how I would have fixed it. That's the one thing that I don't like about today's point sparring, which has turned into a game of tag. It removes the reality that we are going to get hit, no matter how good we think we are. It also ignores the reality that not every strike needs to be avoided and not every strike is going to be "the most powerful strike" Block, redirects, and jams can be viewed as different ways that one may be hit. Point sparring takes all of that away and creates fragile practitioners.

I would have had those 2 students stand in front of each other and I would tell them to take turns hitting and kicking each other in various places (non vital and not the face). If your partner says you can hit them harder then up the power a tad. This will not only give them an idea of what they should expect to feel. It also, helps to other partner to know how hard to hit and kick. Then I would tell them to buy a decent head gear and mouth piece and let them go at it.
 

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
3,146
Both of those guys were black belts.
I don't follow the belt system. I go by what my eyes and ears tell me anything else with belts either gets translated into what I use to keep my pants up and what kids get spanked with. And for martial arts it's just blah, blah, blah.

I know there are some black belts in here, but their belt has no meaning for me, nor does it give me an accurate understanding of their fighting ability. So their belt translates into blah, blah, blah. And that's not me being disrespectful. That's just me being honest. I've sparred and fought with people who were black belts and the belt is just a poor measurement of fighting ability. I could literally join a karate school Start off without a belt and have people think that I can't fight because I don't have a belt. When I watched that video, I didn't even bother looking at their belts.

The reality is that sometimes a black belt means they are good with the kata and terminology of the system. It's not the same standard that it used to represent.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
I don't follow the belt system. I go by what my eyes and ears tell me anything else with belts either gets translated into what I use to keep my pants up and what kids get spanked with. And for martial arts it's just blah, blah, blah.

I know there are some black belts in here, but their belt has no meaning for me, nor does it give me an accurate understanding of their fighting ability. So their belt translates into blah, blah, blah. And that's not me being disrespectful. That's just me being honest. I've sparred and fought with people who were black belts and the belt is just a poor measurement of fighting ability. I could literally join a karate school Start off without a belt and have people think that I can't fight because I don't have a belt. When I watched that video, I didn't even bother looking at their belts.

The reality is that sometimes a black belt means they are good with the kata and terminology of the system. It's not the same standard that it used to represent.

I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.

Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.

Which leads us once again to this;

vKu1sAX.jpeg


;)
 
Last edited:

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,588
Reaction score
622
I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.

Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.

Which leads us once again to this;

vKu1sAX.jpeg


;)

On this we can agree. Any time a martial art becomes commercial and changed to appeal to a wide audience base, the quality goes down so it can be marketed to a mass appeal. Hardcore fighting classes don't pay the bills for most schools to keep the doors open. In our area, they usually offer other classes for "the masses" and have separate classes for those who want to fight more.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,588
Reaction score
622
Again, why do you need to watch an ENTIRE kata to know what the individual techniques are supposed to do? Just by looking at that small snippet, I'm seeing the obvious strikes and kicks. The problem is that none of those strikes and kicks are practical, and will get your face caved in if you ever tried to use them against anyone who knows what they're doing (even someone who doesn't know what they're doing). Oh, I know, if you turn your hips with a 90 degree angle and tuck in your elbow just right, you're actually looking at a throw that will make a Judo black belt envious. :rolleyes:

I did karate for a very long time, and karate kata is loaded with that nonsense. The only thing worse than that are the charlatans who profit from making karateka believe that there's practical techniques to be found in those layers and layers of obsolete silliness. Bunkai is bunk, pure and simple. If you want to do karate dancing, that's your business. It's pretty to look at, and I suppose you can indulge yourself with the history of each kata, but if you're looking for anything practical beyond a workout, you're wasting your time.

Hence why fighting karateka look like kickboxers.



One hand high and one hand low, and a quick turn does not equate into a hip throw. Compare your video to the gif. The movements aren't even REMOTELY similar in any respect. You can attempt to throw someone using those kata movements for the rest of your life, and you'll never hip throw anyone.



Hardly. The point of kata in the past was to catalogue techniques and transfer that knowledge because you weren't able to learn from a proper teacher. The problem is that those techniques are outdated and impractical. Today, kata serves zero purpose beyond being a pretty dance number for competitions, and a way for schools to pad their belt test requirements.

If you wish to practice kata, fine. However, the notion that there's some hidden, practical knowledge within them is one of the purest forms of martial arts BS.

Out of curiousity, what style of karate? Shotokan is infamous and Funakoshi was quite open that he changed the kata from fighting to health benefits.

You call the strikes impractical, yet that is the problem the original Okinawan karate wasn't all strikes and kicks. It contained standup grappling techniques. It was also meant for close in fighting (clinch distance) and not the newer sport style distance that is used. Which is why without seeing the whole movement, I can't tell what they are even doing for the most part in that small repeating gif.

BUT, I do want to add that I do agree with you in regards to some "applications" that I have seen peddled are pure BS. I also agree that some are peddled by pure charlatans. For example, after BJJ became popular, I saw some "karotty guys" teaching that the crossover step in Naihanchi kata was really a hidden move that taught the triangle choke.

Honestly, I think overall we are closer in agreement than it may seem. From my background I make the assumption that karate styles are more in line with what I know and forget that many were katas were changed when they went to Japan and lost much of what they were supposed to teach. Also, that some moves have applications that are no longer relevant to our modern society. For example, in Kusanku there is a move where you bring your hand to the back of your head and then strike with a shuto. The application was teaching how to use an Okinawan hairpin (think knitting needle in size) as an improvised weapon. Most teach it as a chamber to get more power. So again, I do agree that there are some applications that aren't applicable outside the history of a style getting passed on.

Where we do disagree is that some of the moves aren't obvious because they aren't meant to be striking techniques, but they aren't "secret" either.
 
Last edited:

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
404
Both of those guys were black belts.
If they drove Beemers and wore Armani suits would that mean they are captains of industry as well ? If what you wear is an indication of what is inside, books should be judged by their covers.

Putting too much weight around the belt someone wears is not a great idea. So is putting too little. The truth will always come out on the dojo floor and the best fighters are the ones that take nothing for granted.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
Out of curiousity, what style of karate? Shotokan is infamous and Funakoshi was quite open that he changed the kata from fighting to health benefits.

You call the strikes impractical, yet that is the problem the original Okinawan karate wasn't all strikes and kicks. It contained standup grappling techniques. It was also meant for close in fighting (clinch distance) and not the newer sport style distance that is used. Which is why without seeing the whole movement, I can't tell what they are even doing for the most part in that small repeating gif.

BUT, I do want to add that I do agree with you in regards to some "applications" that I have seen peddled are pure BS. I also agree that some are peddled by pure charlatans. For example, after BJJ became popular, I saw some "karotty guys" teaching that the crossover step in Naihanchi kata was really a hidden move that taught the triangle choke.

Honestly, I think overall we are closer in agreement than it may seem. From my background I make the assumption that karate styles are more in line with what I know and forget that many were katas were changed when they went to Japan and lost much of what they were supposed to teach. Also, that some moves have applications that are no longer relevant to our modern society. For example, in Kusanku there is a move where you bring your hand to the back of your head and then strike with a shuto. The application was teaching how to use an Okinawan hairpin (think knitting needle in size) as an improvised weapon. Most teach it as a chamber to get more power. So again, I do agree that there are some applications that aren't applicable outside the history of a style getting passed on.

Where we do disagree is that some of the moves aren't obvious because they aren't meant to be striking techniques, but they aren't "secret" either.

I do largely agree with most of that, and yes my background is in Shotokan, but I do see similar problems crop up in various Karate and Kung Fu styles where kata/forms are abundant. I do understand that Karate kata were streamlined when they entered Japan, but even practitioners of Okinawan karate end up fighting like kickboxers. The exotic movements are nowhere to be found, but are instead replaced with your standard jab, straight, and various types of kicks. It also should be said that the Okinawan Karate bunkai is just as terrible as the Bunkai you see for the Japanese styles.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
If they drove Beemers and wore Armani suits would that mean they are captains of industry as well ? If what you wear is an indication of what is inside, books should be judged by their covers.

Putting too much weight around the belt someone wears is not a great idea. So is putting too little. The truth will always come out on the dojo floor and the best fighters are the ones that take nothing for granted.

If someone is wearing a black belt, that SHOULD be an indication that they have achieved a high level of proficiency in a given martial art. If they have a black belt, but their skill is poor, then that is an indictment on the style they practice, and the level/type of instruction they received. The fact that people now say that belts don't matter is merely an indicator of how far a lot of martial arts have fallen in instruction, and the fact that many schools are nothing more than belt factories.

Again, look at Bjj. In Bjj a black belt still carries a high level of significance. So much so that there are actually people who have no desire to attain it because of all the responsibility it carries. If you beat a legit black belt in Bjj, it's still considered an accomplishment. If you beat a black belt in Karate or a black sash in Kung fu, it's just a Tuesday. That's definitely something to think about.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
404
If someone is wearing a black belt, that SHOULD be an indication that they have achieved a high level of proficiency in a given martial art. If they have a black belt, but their skill is poor, then that is an indictment on the style they practice, and the level/type of instruction they received. The fact that people now say that belts don't matter is merely an indicator of how far a lot of martial arts have fallen in instruction, and the fact that many schools are nothing more than belt factories.

Again, look at Bjj. In Bjj a black belt still carries a high level of significance. So much so that there are actually people who have no desire to attain it because of all the responsibility it carries. If you beat a legit black belt in Bjj, it's still considered an accomplishment. If you beat a black belt in Karate or a black sash in Kung fu, it's just a Tuesday. That's definitely something to think about.
"Should" is the operative word but it doesn't because the allure of 'faking', 'overselling', 'pretending' or whatever you want to call it, appeals to a subsection of the population. I am sure you are not saying that this DOESN'T happen in BJJ circles. According to your theory, if these fakes or whatever you want call them exist in BJJ, how would this be different than any other MA and would they not also devalue BJJ black belts ?
 

isshinryuronin

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
768
Reaction score
587
Location
Las Vegas
For example, in Kusanku there is a move where you bring your hand to the back of your head and then strike with a shuto. The application was teaching how to use an Okinawan hairpin
I mostly and often agree with your posts, but the old "hidden hair pin" technique??? I agree the hand is not coming back just to chamber for power (this is contrary to Okinawan practice). Perhaps that hand is parrying or grabbing prior to the shuto? Whatever the variant of this kata your style uses, I'd look to a more practical bunkai to this move.

but even practitioners of Okinawan karate end up fighting like kickboxers. The exotic movements are nowhere to be found, but are instead replaced with your standard jab, straight, and various types of kicks.

Elbow strikes were used in pre-1960's football, (maybe not legal then, but not enforced either) but this sport's rules have changed over the decades and these "movements are nowhere to be found" nowadays, for the most part. The rules of the sport dictate the techniques used. Just because you don't see the "exotic" moves by Okinawan practitioners when sparring, does not mean they don't exist or work in combat. It's that rules of sparring dictate jabs, common kicks, etc. That's what gets the points. Not the joint breaks, groin kicks, or throat strikes which are forbidden. These moves are found in kata, though. Surely you realize these things by now from all the postings you've exchanged and read. All you need to do now is take off your blinders and get past your bias.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
"Should" is the operative word but it doesn't because the allure of 'faking', 'overselling', 'pretending' or whatever you want to call it, appeals to a subsection of the population. I am sure you are not saying that this DOESN'T happen in BJJ circles. According to your theory, if these fakes or whatever you want call them exist in BJJ, how would this be different than any other MA and would they not also devalue BJJ black belts ?

It's rather hard to fake a black belt in BJJ. People are going to want to roll with you constantly, and they want to know who gave you a black belt. If you can't verify where your black belt came from, that's going to send a signal that you aren't legit, and you're going to start getting people popping up in your gym to see what's going on.

Beyond that, if you're getting tapped by white belts and blue belts, your school isn't going to be open for very long. If your students are getting crushed in competition, again your school isn't going to last long. If a blue belt from the BJJ school across town comes into your gym and submits the entire school including the instructor, your school isn't going to last long.

In short, unlike other martial arts, it's simply not worth it to fake a BJJ black belt.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
Elbow strikes were used in pre-1960's football, (maybe not legal then, but not enforced either) but this sport's rules have changed over the decades and these "movements are nowhere to be found" nowadays, for the most part. The rules of the sport dictate the techniques used. Just because you don't see the "exotic" moves by Okinawan practitioners when sparring, does not mean they don't exist or work in combat. It's that rules of sparring dictate jabs, common kicks, etc. That's what gets the points. Not the joint breaks, groin kicks, or throat strikes which are forbidden. These moves are found in kata, though. Surely you realize these things by now from all the postings you've exchanged and read. All you need to do now is take off your blinders and get past your bias.

If those techniques are forbidden, they're not being practiced, and that makes them obsolete in terms of modern Okinawan karate practice.

It's no different than Judo making leg locks and wrist locks forbidden in practice. Yeah they exist in the kata, but good luck running into a Judoka who can do effective leg and wrist locks. If you're not using them in sparring, they might as well not exist.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
There are some good videos comparring kata to thier exact counterparts in mma

Hilarious. This is that Bunkai nonsense I was talking about earlier. I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch and tried to say it was a takedown.

Also "Okinawan Karate: The original MMA"..... LoL!! Simply embarrassing on just about every imaginable level.

That garbage really needs to stop.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
404
It's rather hard to fake a black belt in BJJ. People are going to want to roll with you constantly, and they want to know who gave you a black belt. If you can't verify where your black belt came from, that's going to send a signal that you aren't legit, and you're going to start getting people popping up in your gym to see what's going on.

Beyond that, if you're getting tapped by white belts and blue belts, your school isn't going to be open for very long. If your students are getting crushed in competition, again your school isn't going to last long. If a blue belt from the BJJ school across town comes into your gym and submits the entire school including the instructor, your school isn't going to last long.

In short, unlike other martial arts, it's simply not worth it to fake a BJJ black belt.
The liklihood of 'fakes' and 'pretenders' can happen across ANY MA. If you train in a fake Kyokushin school and go to any competition, everyone will see for themselves the quality of the school you attend. It is not worth it to fake it but it happens. It definitely happens in BJJ and that hasn't seemingly devalued your opinion of them. Why should it be different for any other MA ?
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
The liklihood of 'fakes' and 'pretenders' can happen across ANY MA. If you train in a fake Kyokushin school and go to any competition, everyone will see for themselves the quality of the school you attend. It is not worth it to fake it but it happens. It definitely happens in BJJ and that hasn't seemingly devalued your opinion of them. Why should it be different for any other MA ?

And again, the fake schools in BJJ don't last long or propagate, whereas the fake schools in Karate do. The martial culture within BJJ itself doesn't allow that level of degrade to happen on the level you see in other martial arts.

Again, why? Because of the level of sparring, and the consistent contact with competing schools. In karate you can fake knowing a kata or how to kick and punch. In BJJ, you can't fake the Guard, escaping from dominant positions, or performing submissions. If you're a complete phony, that stuff simply isn't going to work against a resisting opponent.
 

Christopher Adamchek

Purple Belt
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
324
Reaction score
146
Location
CT
Hilarious. This is that Bunkai nonsense I was talking about earlier. I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch and tried to say it was a takedown.

Also "Okinawan Karate: The original MMA"..... LoL!! Simply embarrassing on just about every imaginable level.

That garbage really needs to stop.

The mountain punch your refering to can be a throw, body hold escape, an uppercut/shovel hook and overhand combo, ect. - it is a versatile technique
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,264
Reaction score
970
The mountain punch your refering to can be a throw, body hold escape, an uppercut/shovel hook and overhand combo, ect.

Do you have any examples of a Karateka performing the "Mountain Punch" against a resisting opponent? I'd love to see it.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,588
Reaction score
622
I mostly and often agree with your posts, but the old "hidden hair pin" technique??? I agree the hand is not coming back just to chamber for power (this is contrary to Okinawan practice). Perhaps that hand is parrying or grabbing prior to the shuto? Whatever the variant of this kata your style uses, I'd look to a more practical bunkai to this move.

Here is an interview with Hohan Soken who also references that Kusanku was frequently practiced with the "Jiffa" or hair pins in your hands.
FightingArts.com - Interview With Hohan Soken: The Last Of The Great Old Time Karate Warriors ? Part 1

Chotoku Kyan also taught many applications in Kusanku used the Jiffa. Here is a picture of the "weird chamber" I was referencing, but in the Yara Kusanku, which is one of the older versions of Kusanku the hand is completly behind the head. If you look at later versions the chamber is done differently and is more to the side of the head or to the front and is taught as a deflection or chamber.
taira-kusanku.jpg


This move was taught by Chotoku Kyan as pulling out a Jiffa. I am sure that people could assign other applications to it, but this was one of the orginal applications that were passed down that we know for sure.

As an aside, with your "Isshinryu" reference in your screen name. That is also one of the big controversies in regards to Kusanku. Chotoku Kyan taught it as a night fighting kata and Tatsuo Shimabuku taught it as a night fighting kata, yet there are many karate people out there who deny it has applications and strategies to be used at night and say that it is a myth.
 

isshinryuronin

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
768
Reaction score
587
Location
Las Vegas
If those techniques are forbidden, they're not being practiced, and that makes them obsolete in terms of modern Okinawan karate practice.

It's no different than Judo making leg locks and wrist locks forbidden in practice. Yeah they exist in the kata, but good luck running into a Judoka who can do effective leg and wrist locks. If you're not using them in sparring, they might as well not exist.
Your 1st comment is wrong. Of course you can practice forbidden moves not allowed in competition. But there is truth to the fact that practice is not the same as actual employment against a live, resisting opponent. But how do you practice deadly or maiming techniques in the gym against live resisting opponents? If all the students are in the ground or hospital, there will be no revenue coming in - not good for business. So, we must settle for kata or other type of practice for these moves. How do they practice killing moves in Special Forces CQC?
 
Top