Between Judo and Wrestling for police..

[Juany118]

You mean juany who so far has said i have never fought with a belt kit on. Or with disorienting conditions. Or under stress. Or with use of force. And has obviously no idea what my job contained. But will invent stuff anyway?

I would cry like an emo and tell them they don't understand me.

Or as I have always done try to explain in a manner that does not rely on me being amazing and more a logical process.

Ahh look, simple proof that you cherry pick, or simply do not read. I acknowledged that you fought with a baton and cuffs on your belt. That is not the same as fighting with the kit of a patrol officer where they will have 3-4 weapons, not including the baton, on the FRONT or side of their belt, all accessible to a suspect.

Also in so far as use of force you don't know what a US Police Officer has to be able to articulate in terms of use of force. As was illustrated in a post above that noted case law we have to address. Then you have Act 1983 where an officer can be sued for civil rights violations under the 4th Amendment (among others). I have invented nothing regarding your experience. I have even said those techniques may work for your purposes but that does not mean they work for LE, at least in the US. All I have pointed out is that your argument is based on two things...
1. I think the realities of US Police work are stupid. Since I believe those realities are stupid it's stupid to design tactics to account for them.
2. Because MMA is the end all be all, and these techniques work for my purposes, ergo they must work for all purposes, even those I have no experience with.
3. Even if someone has experience I lack, they don't know what they are talking about.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Ahh look, simple proof that you cherry pick, or simply do not read. I acknowledged that you fought with a baton and cuffs on your belt. That is not the same as fighting with the kit of a patrol officer where they will have 3-4 weapons, not including the baton, on the FRONT or side of their belt, all accessible to a suspect.

Also in so far as use of force you don't know what a US Police Officer has to be able to articulate in terms of use of force. As was illustrated in a post above that noted case law we have to address. Then you have Act 1983 where an officer can be sued for civil rights violations under the 4th Amendment (among others). I have invented nothing regarding your experience. I have even said those techniques may work for your purposes but that does not mean they work for LE, at least in the US. All I have pointed out is that your argument is based on two things...
1. I think the realities of US Police work are stupid. Since I believe those realities are stupid it's stupid to design tactics to account for them.
2. Because MMA is the end all be all, and these techniques work for my purposes, ergo they must work for all purposes, even those I have no experience with.
3. Even if someone has experience I lack, they don't know what they are talking about.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

You keep changing what you said and did not say. I am cherry parts that you are quite simply pulling out of thin air.

And it makes having a normal discussion with you incredibly difficult.

 

[Buka]

Might be a good idea to keep one thing in mind in this thread. We're all the good guys. Hope so, anyway.

 

[Juany118]

Just one thing. Go to about the 6 minute mark. It is a BJJ guy making my point for me.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

But there is a much more nuanced debate about gear retention. Which is about positional advantage.

So nothing like that?

No nuanced debate or normal conversation about how to protect belt gear?

Because if it was then we would have had a normal conversation about it. Because old mate is right in what he says there.

 

[Juany118]

So nothing like that?

No nuanced debate or normal conversation about how to protect belt gear?

Because if it was then we would have had a normal conversation about it. Because old mate is right in what he says there.

The point was basically, you need your "eyes open" to the reality, which he didn't get, until he got away from ground fighting arts. Because your positional advantage arguments is actually the weakest of the arguments you made, and I detailed why previously and will not be repeating myself.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

The point was basically, you need your "eyes open" to the reality, which he didn't get, until he got away from ground fighting arts. Because your positional advantage arguments is actually the weakest of the arguments you made, and I detailed why previously and will not be repeating myself.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

That's fine I will look them up for you.

Also LOCKDOWN involves not just low light conditions but bizarre light and sound conditions. Things look VERY different and can even be disorienting, in a real fight when you are on the "wrong side" of a spot light, take down lights, the red and blues and potentially a siren still blaring. Heck the CIA used similar conditions as part of "enhanced interrogations", now imagine fighting in them.

Distracted by flashing lights?

If your sirens are still on that is because you had a vehicle pursuit. That pursuit in and of itself created the fight or flight response that you will get in a fight because each intersection could result in a pile up. Police Combatives need to account for that. Also training so you know what it's like starting the fight after hopping fences and running for a block or too is also very important because before you go hands on you will already be fatigued, possibly even with minor injuries. If you can't deal with those in training you sure as heck wont be able to do it on the street so you need to "train like you fight" not only so you know what can happen but so that you can say to yourself "yeah I can do that".

Distracted by car chases foot chases and minor injuries?

unlike other Countries most PDs have all of the officer's gear on the belt around their waist and the techniques you illustrated fail to take this into account completely.

you are apparently not a LEO gave you the benefit of the doubt that the cops you see don't have a lot of gear on their belt.

The only country in the world that has belt kit?

And why do a lot of cop fights look like wrestling, because the training in Police Combatives cost money and so most cops just do "whatever" and it sucks. It's cheaper to buy the cop a point and shoot taser and OC spray. The OP was asking about setting up a real combatives training course, and the real courses avoid what looks like wrestling, because for cops in terms of tool retention and access it sucks.

The training isn't sufficient?

The LE DT programs whether PPCT, Gracie, LOCKUP etc were designed by people or groups of people with decades upon decades of knowledge and experience in both the facts you are ignorant of and the martial arts. But you know better? I am honestly sitting here right now praying to God that you are just trolling because the utter ridiculousness of your argument, if we can even call it that because arguments require facts and experience, is the new "flat earth" movement

But it is also crafted by experts that should not the questioned.

I mean look. You probably have a point you are trying to make here. But so far you arguments are not really making any real sense.

 

[Charlemagne]

Just one thing. Go to about the 6 minute mark. It is a BJJ guy making my point for me.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

On a serious note, though I was kind of serious there, I do know a bunch of police officers training in the Filipino Martial Arts, and all of them talk about how much they have learned from their training. Heck, my first FMA instructor was a LEO himself, so that added a dose of reality to what he was teaching us. As for the rest, I think that the answer is more complex then some are making it out to be. There are obvious realities that LEO's have to deal with that the average person does not. As such, any martial arts approach is going to have to be adapted for their situation. Having said that, when I look at the attributes that certain martial arts systems teach, and the manner in which they pressure test them, I believe strongly in what I posted earlier in the thread in regards to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Pekiti Tirsia Kali, both of whom have programs for LEO's that are tailored to them. The weapons game is important, but so is the grappling game. As such, bringing in more than one group might be the answer, depending on resources of course.

Some good work which is being done in the area of weapons grappling:

 

[Juany118]

On a serious note, though I was kind of serious there, I do know a bunch of police officers training in the Filipino Martial Arts, and all of them talk about how much they have learned from their training. Heck, my first FMA instructor was a LEO himself, so that added a dose of reality to what he was teaching us. As for the rest, I think that the answer is more complex then some are making it out to be. There are obvious realities that LEO's have to deal with that the average person does not. As such, any martial arts approach is going to have to be adapted for their situation. Having said that, when I look at the attributes that certain martial arts systems teach, and the manner in which they pressure test them, I believe strongly in what I posted earlier in the thread in regards to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Pekiti Tirsia Kali, both of whom have programs for LEO's that are tailored to them. The weapons game is important, but so is the grappling game. As such, bringing in more than one group might be the answer, depending on resources of course.

Some good work which is being done in the area of weapons grappling:

I just used that video because at the indicated mark he sums up one of the differences that a lot of "traditional" martial arts don't address but Kali does due to its idea of "anything is a weapon".

That is why I like certain LE DT courses. It addresses this and focuses on the fact your weapons, even radio, can be used against you. In terms of the actual techniques they are all actually a kin to Krav Maga in that they take a lot of the more easily digested techniques from other martial arts, that are appropriate for LE, and then also go into other things like actual tactics, UoF continuum, point out the physiological and psychological effects of combat, threat de-escalation etc. All of this in a package that doesn't require years of regular intense training to be competent in.

Also I agree, the grappling game is important, the Kali I take includes it. All I am saying is some grappling techniques are not preferable as it puts your tools at risk and makes disengagement problematic. So grappling should be about avoiding these pit falls and if the opponent forces you into them, extricating yourself from that circumstance.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

On a serious note, though I was kind of serious there, I do know a bunch of police officers training in the Filipino Martial Arts, and all of them talk about how much they have learned from their training. Heck, my first FMA instructor was a LEO himself, so that added a dose of reality to what he was teaching us. As for the rest, I think that the answer is more complex then some are making it out to be. There are obvious realities that LEO's have to deal with that the average person does not. As such, any martial arts approach is going to have to be adapted for their situation. Having said that, when I look at the attributes that certain martial arts systems teach, and the manner in which they pressure test them, I believe strongly in what I posted earlier in the thread in regards to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Pekiti Tirsia Kali, both of whom have programs for LEO's that are tailored to them. The weapons game is important, but so is the grappling game. As such, bringing in more than one group might be the answer, depending on resources of course.

Some good work which is being done in the area of weapons grappling:

The big issue you have is a DT system generally has to be as lean as you can physically make it. Every move has to multitask if you can get it to.

So you are limited by what you can teach a bit. Now from there you would almost have to include a basic sweep and a basic get up. And it would take most of a day to get that functional.

Add to that good position and good hand fighting. Because belt kit. And punching/stabbing/shooting.

So there is to a certain degree an order of importance. If You can be out of guard that is the first place to be. Even to a fifty fifty stand up. Because you don't have to re engage. Because space works for you if you have a tazer bat spray and gun.

 

[Charlemagne]

All I am saying is some grappling techniques are not preferable as it puts your tools at risk and makes disengagement problematic. So grappling should be about avoiding these pit falls and if the opponent forces you into them, extricating yourself from that circumstance.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

No argument there.

It would seem that the nature of having to put your hands on someone and arrest them would put you in a position where you are grappling whether you want to be or not. As such, it would seem logical that all officers have some background in basic grappling techniques. As you noted, there may be some techniques which are more appropriate then others.

 

[Juany118]

The big issue you have is a DT system generally has to be as lean as you can physically make it. Every move has to multitask if you can get it to.

So you are limited by what you can teach a bit. Now from there you would almost have to include a basic sweep and a basic get up. And it would take most of a day to get that functional.

Add to that good position and good hand fighting. Because belt kit. And punching/stabbing/shooting.

So there is to a certain degree an order of importance. If You can be out of guard that is the first place to be. Even to a fifty fifty stand up. Because you don't have to re engage. Because space works for you if you have a tazer bat spray and gun.

I'll address the first thing. My point is NOT talking about other police departments in the world, it is focused solely on the lack of experience YOU have. You are projecting what works for you, in your environment. Sorry your environment and kit isn't the same. The Gracie DT system, PPCT, LOCKUP, Code 4, and more aren't just taught in the US, they simply started there. Other Countries have started importing them from South and Central America to Europe. As an example I have traveled to England and Germany and spoken to cops there. They have said "in terms of regular police work we are equal but when it comes to DT we are about 5 years behind." As for them not being questioned, if they weren't questioned you wouldn't have multiple systems.

I think you also miss that these are NOT martial arts. They are called DT for a reason. All of them are designed in a specific way to address these following factors, before you even get to the things you still, for some reason, senselessly dismiss because the requirements are beyond your personal experience.

1. Anything taught by a Police Department HAS to be standardized and have a pedigree that will stand up in a court of law.
2. It needs to address the fact that Police Departments will NOT pay for officers to be trained weekly, and over a LONG period of time as is required to really become competent in a more formal Martial Art. So you have something that is taught in an immersive matter of a day or course of days and then is "refreshed" by individual practice and recertification courses.

After those two big things you look at the following 2 key facts. 99% of the time this is the nature of the suspect...
1. Little to no actually training in terms of fighting
2. When they fight they are fighting to escape, not to beat you.

Next they are designed with the following in mind
1. To hold on and get the suspect in cuffs or so you can disengage and go to a tool.
2. If the above can't happen hold on until the Cavalry arrives, it is coming, and then weight of numbers wins the day.

A perfect example of #2 was the last Saturday into Sunday. We had a huge brawl, Just the two of us who could respond (we also had a burglary in progress at the same time) couldn't handle the numbers on our own so we asked for an assist to be toned out. My wife works for a department over 30 minutes away, but in the same County, so she heard it over County Wide, and would have started my way if she wasn't the OIC because every department in the County heard "officers need assistance, X city, Y address."

DT are built with very specific and different purposes in mind than Martial Arts. Do I personally prefer "real" martial art(s) yes, otherwise I would be spending money out of my own pocket BUT in terms of the specific purposes and needs of LE, DT do an excellent job because they account for the specific dynamics;

purpose, equipment, environments, access to back up via radio, the nature and purpose of the resistance you need to overcome, civil liability, skill retention (hence largely gross muscle skills) etc.

If you look at it from strictly a Martial arts perspective you will see things lacking BUT if you look at things from a LE perspective you see it is there by design.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Juany118]

No argument there.

It would seem that the nature of having to put your hands on someone and arrest them would put you in a position where you are grappling whether you want to be or not. As such, it would seem logical that all officers have some background in basic grappling techniques. As you noted, there may be some techniques which are more appropriate then others.

Exactly, arm bars, wrist and elbow locks, even knee restraint maneuvers (from the kneeling position on a prone subject.). I have used all of these. What you want to avoid is wrestling with bad guy, especially on the ground, because he now can reach for your most dangerous tools and you go from restraint to weapon retention. It also interferes with your ability to disengage and/or access your tools if it becomes necessary.

The easiest way I can describe it is when you grapple you need to think about your waist, 360 degrees, being free from contact with the suspect while grappling, especially when face to face, but there are plenty of techniques that allow for this.

This isn't to say crap doesn't happen, there are times it is unavoidable, but you should always be trying to avoid it.

I should have been more specific and said "ground fighting" and not grappling. Sorry.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

I'll address the first thing. My point is NOT talking about other police departments in the world, it is focused solely on the lack of experience YOU have. You are projecting what works for you, in your environment. Sorry your environment and kit isn't the same. The Gracie DT system, PPCT, LOCKUP, Code 4, and more aren't just taught in the US, they simply started there. Other Countries have started importing them from South and Central America to Europe. As an example I have traveled to England and Germany and spoken to cops there. They have said "in terms of regular police work we are equal but when it comes to DT we are about 5 years behind." As for them not being questioned, if they weren't questioned you wouldn't have multiple systems.

I think you also miss that these are NOT martial arts. They are called DT for a reason. All of them are designed in a specific way to address these following factors, before you even get to the things you still, for some reason, senselessly dismiss because the requirements are beyond your personal experience.

1. Anything taught by a Police Department HAS to be standardized and have a pedigree that will stand up in a court of law.
2. It needs to address the fact that Police Departments will NOT pay for officers to be trained weekly, and over a LONG period of time as is required to really become competent in a more formal Martial Art. So you have something that is taught in an immersive matter of a day or course of days and then is "refreshed" by individual practice and recertification courses.

After those two big things you look at the following 2 key facts. 99% of the time this is the nature of the suspect...
1. Little to no actually training in terms of fighting
2. When they fight they are fighting to escape, not to beat you.

Next they are designed with the following in mind
1. To hold on and get the suspect in cuffs or so you can disengage and go to a tool.
2. If the above can't happen hold on until the Cavalry arrives, it is coming, and then weight of numbers wins the day.

A perfect example of #2 was the last Saturday into Sunday. We had a huge brawl, Just the two of us who could respond (we also had a burglary in progress at the same time) couldn't handle the numbers on our own so we asked for an assist to be toned out. My wife works for a department over 30 minutes away, but in the same County, so she heard it over County Wide, and would have started my way if she wasn't the OIC because every department in the County heard "officers need assistance, X city, Y address."

DT are built with very specific and different purposes in mind than Martial Arts. Do I personally prefer "real" martial art(s) yes, otherwise I would be spending money out of my own pocket BUT in terms of the specific purposes and needs of LE, DT do an excellent job because they account for the specific dynamics;

purpose, equipment, environments, access to back up via radio, the nature and purpose of the resistance you need to overcome, civil liability, skill retention (hence largely gross muscle skills) etc.

If you look at it from strictly a Martial arts perspective you will see things lacking BUT if you look at things from a LE perspective you see it is there by design.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

So in relation to the video above where that cop and the guy were wrestling. Instead of accounting for that happening. They are more focused on other issues.

Guys dont fight back. That guy did.

Guys mostly cant fight. That guy could.

One up was dangerous. Sorry cant afford it.

But the cop was trained in specific dynamics. Like i am sure he could have told people where he was in the force continuum. Or was not being disoriented by flashing lights.
Would have even been able to cuff that guy like a boss had the guy not been resisting.

That is the irony of these DT. Methods is they do not put the individuals saftey as a priority.

And that is something you dont understand.

 

[Charlemagne]

I should have been more specific and said "ground fighting" and not grappling. Sorry.

No worries. Regardless, I would expect that yes, you would prefer not to go to the ground, but obviously, things happen as you noted. As such, one had better know what they are doing there.

FYI, I know the Gracies are not the end all be all to DT, or to MA in general. I just remembered this video in the context of your comments.

 

[Charlemagne]

Knowing this system the way I do, and having trained in several others prior, I cannot recommend Tim Waid highly enough. It may be something worth looking into.

Defensive Tactics Safety System for Law Enforcement – PTK-SMF™

 

[Juany118]

No worries. Regardless, I would expect that yes, you would prefer not to go to the ground, but obviously, things happen as you noted. As such, one had better know what they are doing there.

FYI, I know the Gracies are not the end all be all to DT, or to MA in general. I just remembered this video in the context of your comments.

Oh I absolutely agree. You may be forced there and must have a clue as to what to do when there, hopefully to extricate yourself and barring that protect your tools and control the suspect until backup arrives.

I have just watched some guys fall into the trap of watching it work in a competitive environment and think it is universally awesome, not realizing that the LE professional environment has numerous complications that mean those techniques should be last resort kinda things under most circumstances. Most DT programs I have seen do teach ground fighting but they tech techniques to get you out of that fight into a circumstance where the bad guy is still there but you are more vertical.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Juany118]

So in relation to the video above where that cop and the guy were wrestling. Instead of accounting for that happening. They are more focused on other issues.

Guys dont fight back. That guy did.

Guys mostly cant fight. That guy could.

One up was dangerous. Sorry cant afford it.

But the cop was trained in specific dynamics. Like i am sure he could have told people where he was in the force continuum. Or was not being disoriented by flashing lights.
Would have even been able to cuff that guy like a boss had the guy not been resisting.

That is the irony of these DT. Methods is they do not put the individuals saftey as a priority.

And that is something you dont understand.

First the officer there made numerous tactical mistakes. There are a number of things he could have done that would have prevented that from becoming a fight of that nature. Next, I have said about 100 times... most police officers, in the US, dont get regular DT tactics training after they leave the academy, that is changing but the video is clear evidence the officer is in the "don't" category.

90% of the videos you see on TV or YouTube of such incidents are, sadly, not of officers trained in DTs that don't prioritize their safety, the DTs DO just that. Rather they usually show an officer who made a number of mistakes due to complacency and are also proof that they, sadly, had the typical training of "here is how to use the tools on the belt now hit the street" and NOT actual DT training. Heck we often use these videos to say "don't become complacent, don't let this happen to you."

As for the last bit sorry you have no clue and the arrogance evidenced in that last statement is actually quite stunning. You are the one who doesn't understand, though you were unknowingly half right. The majority of municipalities do not prioritize safety. They put one man cars on the street and almost never have officers trained in proven DT systems, only on how to use the tools on their belt. They also rarely do scenario training so officers have at least half a clue as to how a seemingly innocent scenario can go sideways because to make these corrections costs money.

That said the reputable DT systems fill this gap, the trick is convincing Municipalities to spend the money on the training. That all said, please feel free to respond in anyway you chose. For some reason I took you off ignore, I would make that mistake again. I can honestly say I have NEVER seen anyone with no experience whatsoever in a particular professional field try to tell professionals what will and what will not work for them with as much uninformed certainty as you have and it really isn't worth the time anymore.

 

[Juany118]

No worries. Regardless, I would expect that yes, you would prefer not to go to the ground, but obviously, things happen as you noted. As such, one had better know what they are doing there.

FYI, I know the Gracies are not the end all be all to DT, or to MA in general. I just remembered this video in the context of your comments.

Oh almost forgot my view of the video, it pretty much says what I was saying in terms of dynamics (wanting to avoid a ground fight, protecting your gear etc). However, if you look at the video, in that circumstance, the ground fight could have been avoided all together.

The officer has the suspect on the ground, head away from him and almost on his belly. All this and the fact the officer still standing has that officer in the dominant position. When he went down and the suspect didn't immediately give up his left arm I expected the officer to do ANYTHING but what he did. The Officer gave up his dominant position and went head to head with guy and invited a wrestling match.

Now I don't know what the purpose of the arrest was for, but clearly it wasn't for a major charge. That said this is what the officer should have done.

1. Preserve the dominant position.

The officer invited the ground fight. He could have easily gotten the subject onto his belly from that position and then been kneeling on the subject either on the kidneys or between the shoulder blades. From here there are multitude of techniques and tools one can use as you are in a dominant position and preserve access to your tools. Yes this became a ground fight and you need to understand what to do there but here the officer invited a ground fight which is simply beyond my understanding.


In all of the "worst case scenario" cop videos I see I see a few things.

1. officers making tactical blunders, often due to complacency, that if not made could have prevented a physically fight of that nature period.
2. officers saying "i have to arrest this guy right this very second" and so give up a dominant position and open themselves up to vulnerability.
3. Officers who (maybe) do everything to avoid using tools because it requires more paperwork.
4. Officers who allow their pride to get in the way of good tactics
5. Perhaps most important. Officers who were not trained in proper DT since the Acadamey and who don't spend the money on Martial Arts themselves.

That video happened because of a combination of the 5 things above and as a result the officer gave up the dominate position. It sucks but videos like that are often used in in-service training, not as the guys there did to say "learn this technique" but to say "don't do what this guy did that got him on the ground in the first place."

 

[drop bear]

No worries. Regardless, I would expect that yes, you would prefer not to go to the ground, but obviously, things happen as you noted. As such, one had better know what they are doing there.

FYI, I know the Gracies are not the end all be all to DT, or to MA in general. I just remembered this video in the context of your comments.

There is ironically almost no work from them in turtle in any DT system i have encountered. And it is one of the more common scenarios.

If you are trying to flatten a guy out. They will try to get up.