Between Judo and Wrestling for police..

[BJJCop]

My police department has asked me to assist in teaching hands-on techniques in the massive mat area we have available to our training HQ..However, I've done so much undecided thinking about two particular applications with colleagues, discussing the two distinctions on approach to reality, and that's between Judo or Wrestling for policing.

Why do you hear more about police forces gravitating towards Judo, and if you think one transitions best to suiting it's use in the police, why?

Currently, I'm thinking about the distinction of Judo's more upright posture, and use of lapels, and those factors in consideration to a self defence situation. It does strike my knowledge that US Marines think highly of Judo in their training which is an interesting one! Opinions welcome!

 

[MAfreak]

there was a similar thread here just a few days ago.
we stated that judo and wrestling is pretty much the same. its like judo has gi-techniques as an addition.
even if not allowed in competition, i think judo should have also wristlocks which can be useful for security and police (like its relatives ju jutsu, aikido and hapkido). not sure if wrestling teaches wristlocks too.

 

[drop bear]

there was a similar thread here just a few days ago.
we stated that judo and wrestling is pretty much the same. its like judo has gi-techniques as an addition.
even if not allowed in competition, i think judo should have also wristlocks which can be useful for security and police (like its relatives ju jutsu, aikido and hapkido). not sure if wrestling teaches wristlocks too.

Wrestling teaches arm control. Which is 90% of the wrist lock. And quite often the bit wrist lock arts miss.

 

[jks9199]

Is there some reason you need to focus on a particular art in developing this DT curriculum? Is there a reason you're reinventing the wheel at all? There are dozens of programs out there, of varying quality. Steve Jimerfied's One-on-One Control Tactics program has had very good reviews from people whose opinions I trust -- and he's a high ranking martial artist -- judo, jujutsu, more -- as well very experienced police officer, but he's literally only one. We've got at least one member here who's a PPCT instructor, if he's still active and posting. Or why focus on a particular art, rather than looking at the underlying concepts and principles.

Who is your audience? Academy recruits, rookies, experienced officers, tactical operators? Each has different needs and different learning approaches that you'll have to take into account. Is this a one and done, or part of a comprehensive and ongoing program?

Honestly, speaking as a DT instructor and tolerably experienced cop, I'm not even sure what you're trying to do when you say "discussing the two distinctions on approach to reality, and that's between Judo or Wrestling for policing". What I've seen more and more is an emphasis on not linking into one system or approach, but using multiple methods and styles to draw from.

 

[drop bear]

Is there some reason you need to focus on a particular art in developing this DT curriculum? Is there a reason you're reinventing the wheel at all? There are dozens of programs out there, of varying quality. Steve Jimerfied's One-on-One Control Tactics program has had very good reviews from people whose opinions I trust -- and he's a high ranking martial artist -- judo, jujutsu, more -- as well very experienced police officer, but he's literally only one. We've got at least one member here who's a PPCT instructor, if he's still active and posting. Or why focus on a particular art, rather than looking at the underlying concepts and principles.

Who is your audience? Academy recruits, rookies, experienced officers, tactical operators? Each has different needs and different learning approaches that you'll have to take into account. Is this a one and done, or part of a comprehensive and ongoing program?

Honestly, speaking as a DT instructor and tolerably experienced cop, I'm not even sure what you're trying to do when you say "discussing the two distinctions on approach to reality, and that's between Judo or Wrestling for policing". What I've seen more and more is an emphasis on not linking into one system or approach, but using multiple methods and styles to draw from.

Ppct is freakin atrocious. There is a very good reason why the only people who train in that are the ones who are forced to do it.

And it's basic principles have been making me and other industry guys less safe for years.


They are the numb nuts who think you can combat punches with wristlocks.

 

[drop bear]

Spend the rest of my day just ragging on ppct

I mean come on. This is what enter the dojo uses as their base material.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My police department has asked me to assist in teaching hands-on techniques in the massive mat area we have available to our training HQ..However, I've done so much undecided thinking about two particular applications with colleagues, discussing the two distinctions on approach to reality, and that's between Judo or Wrestling for policing.

Why do you hear more about police forces gravitating towards Judo, and if you think one transitions best to suiting it's use in the police, why?

Currently, I'm thinking about the distinction of Judo's more upright posture, and use of lapels, and those factors in consideration to a self defence situation. It does strike my knowledge that US Marines think highly of Judo in their training which is an interesting one! Opinions welcome!

You need to pick the techniques that will best allow the police officer to use the tools of their trade. Things like gun, stun gun, baton, sheild, mace, and taser should be factored in to what you teach. If you teach the wrong technique then you'll end up putting the police officer in a situation where the tools of his trade no longer becomes and option.

 

[punisher73]

Spend the rest of my day just ragging on ppct

I mean come on. This is what enter the dojo uses as their base material.

For the record, that crap was NOT ppct.

If you were taught to try a wrist lock for someone trying to punch you, then your instructor was an idiot and you were not taught PPCT properly. As an instructor in 3 different PPCT modules, I would say that 90% of the complaints are on how their particular instructor taught them and not how the system was designed. That being said, is it the "end all, be all" system? Nope, things that could be improved on it. But, most of what other systems do even if they don't admit it was taken from how PPCT was structured and addressed use of force levels etc.

 

[DarkConflict]

Are you incorporating GJJ/BJJ into your training? I say a mixture of both Judo/wrestling as both are beneficial.

Too many officers have a "Ill just shoot" mentality, I've heard it so many times.

"If a suspect does this or that ill just shoot"

There is also an over reliance on the Taser, baton and OC spray. Truthfully many officers can't fight or never been in a fight.

I see it all too often and you can tell when the recruits are in the academy.

 

[drop bear]

For the record, that crap was NOT ppct.

If you were taught to try a wrist lock for someone trying to punch you, then your instructor was an idiot and you were not taught PPCT properly. As an instructor in 3 different PPCT modules, I would say that 90% of the complaints are on how their particular instructor taught them and not how the system was designed. That being said, is it the "end all, be all" system? Nope, things that could be improved on it. But, most of what other systems do even if they don't admit it was taken from how PPCT was structured and addressed use of force levels etc.

Is the system designed to churn out crap instructors due to week long instructional courses?

That then function as a money making franchise because you have to do their course to be qualified to do the job.

Which relies on the disposable staff being more likley to be hurt because it is cheaper for the company to replace a broken guard rather than face a law suit.

And yes my instructors were idiots.

But look if there is a decent version of ppct out there i would be interested to see it

But in my experience it has been one of the most damaging things to have happened to people who use force for a living.


Looks like it has been shaved down to a day.

PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor Course

 

[marques]

I feel wrestling easier to learn, and more suitable for beginners with natural instinct to use force or for heavy polices. How much time do you/they have to train?
Anyway, I don't have deep understanding of any of them...

 

[MAfreak]

Are you incorporating GJJ/BJJ into your training?
There is also an over reliance on the Taser, baton and OC spray. Truthfully many officers can't fight or never been in a fight.

gjj? to me its german ju jutsu, do you mean that? its a hybrid system mainly based on jjj and its what police officers here train.

to the baton (tonfa) i often see officers even holding them wrong. even in a reportage about a german special police force. there should be more kobudo lessons for them...

 

[drop bear]

gjj? to me its german ju jutsu, do you mean that? its a hybrid system mainly based on jjj and its what police officers here train.

to the baton (tonfa) i often see officers even holding them wrong. even in a reportage about a german special police force. there should be more kobudo lessons for them...

Gracie ju jitsu.

 

[DarkConflict]

gjj? to me its german ju jutsu, do you mean that? its a hybrid system mainly based on jjj and its what police officers here train.

to the baton (tonfa) i often see officers even holding them wrong. even in a reportage about a german special police force. there should be more kobudo lessons for them...

Like Dropbear said Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, basically BJJ tailored for street confrontations.

Then again the OP name is BJJCop so he most likely is teaching some BJJ.

Here in the states I haven't seen officers hold a baton wrong. Yet I've seen some swing them with no real intent.

I believe mindset plays a big role in the defensive tactics portion of the academy or yearly training.

Some officers train in the arts, but a whole lot more don't. The training in the acadamies isn't sufficient in the long run.

I haven't got the criminal vibe from students in the bjj schools I've been to. Yet most criminals have a lot of experience in just fighting period.

You figure many start as teens or preteens as criminals. They move up from juvenile hall, to county, to prison. They are fighting at each level and that alone gives them experience.

Experience that many cops don't have in fighting.

 

[MAfreak]

god damn shortcuts...

well in us-films and such one can see them holding tonfas wrong all the time. but sure this doesn't mean, real cops do so too.

and at least not everyone here does it wrong
File:Rostock G8 police arrest.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

[drop bear]

I have used an asp. And played around with the tonfa. And for me from a practical level as soon as you move away from holding one end and hitting them with the other you get into trouble.

So the tonfa handle becomes a bit more trouble than it is worth.

Especially if you are trying to swing on a guy while holding the little handle thing.

 

[Spinedoc]

Wrestling teaches arm control. Which is 90% of the wrist lock. And quite often the bit wrist lock arts miss.

Not necessarily. Depends on the instructor more than the art. In Aikido (at least my dojo) we are constantly stressing the importance of extension. For example, Shihonage, if you do it soft, and let uke keep the arm in a flexed position near his/her center, it becomes ineffective, because you have allowed them to have it back, we keep the arm under significant tension in an extended position, which keeps the arm under control, and also disrupts their balance. The same is with nikyo, sankyo, or any of the others. That being said, I have also seen some Aikido places that don't stress that maintenance of control, and their techniques seem soft because of it.

 

[punisher73]

Is the system designed to churn out crap instructors due to week long instructional courses?

That then function as a money making franchise because you have to do their course to be qualified to do the job.

Which relies on the disposable staff being more likley to be hurt because it is cheaper for the company to replace a broken guard rather than face a law suit.

And yes my instructors were idiots.

But look if there is a decent version of ppct out there i would be interested to see it

But in my experience it has been one of the most damaging things to have happened to people who use force for a living.


Looks like it has been shaved down to a day.

PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor Course

Can't answer that part of it. I can only speak to the training I have been too (and it has included other training in defensive tactics as well for comparision) The people who taught PPCT were competent in teaching the system. They also took pride in their name being attached to it and made sure that those there for the instructor program knew how to apply and teach the techniques.

Also, EVERY SINGLE INSTRUCTOR said that the program for "new certs" was to introduce them to the basic idea of the system and it was up to them to get in the reps to make it a habit. That is the issue that most people have when it comes to defensive tactics. Officers take the class and learn the basic movements, but then never practice them or train them and then blame the system on why it won't work. It won't matter if it is PPCT or the "Gracie Survival Tactics" that they are teaching to LEO. They can show you the technique and you can become proficient in applying the technique in a limited capacity to teach it to others, but anyone who thinks that it's the system that protects the officers if they don't train on their own is mislead.

As to the link you showed, the course is listed as a week long course for certification (40 hours). Just like the Gracie program that is supposed to be highly regarded in LEO circles.

Here is the second question that I usually ask people. What specific technique in PPCT doesn't work? I have not found a person that can actually answer that part other than them trying to misapply a technique for what it was designed for.

 

[drop bear]

Can't answer that part of it. I can only speak to the training I have been too (and it has included other training in defensive tactics as well for comparision) The people who taught PPCT were competent in teaching the system. They also took pride in their name being attached to it and made sure that those there for the instructor program knew how to apply and teach the techniques.

Also, EVERY SINGLE INSTRUCTOR said that the program for "new certs" was to introduce them to the basic idea of the system and it was up to them to get in the reps to make it a habit. That is the issue that most people have when it comes to defensive tactics. Officers take the class and learn the basic movements, but then never practice them or train them and then blame the system on why it won't work. It won't matter if it is PPCT or the "Gracie Survival Tactics" that they are teaching to LEO. They can show you the technique and you can become proficient in applying the technique in a limited capacity to teach it to others, but anyone who thinks that it's the system that protects the officers if they don't train on their own is mislead.

As to the link you showed, the course is listed as a week long course for certification (40 hours). Just like the Gracie program that is supposed to be highly regarded in LEO circles.

Here is the second question that I usually ask people. What specific technique in PPCT doesn't work? I have not found a person that can actually answer that part other than them trying to misapply a technique for what it was designed for.

I haven't done the Gracie one. It could be craptastic as well.

Trying to think what we were taught now. From memory it was all badly applied wristlocks that were meant to bring every offender under control due to the magic of pain compliance.
Then you put a red man suit on and throw the training out the door and wrestle.

One person goosenecks were always pretty silly.

Straight arm bar takedowns are silly.

Arm bar hold down don't work.

Grinding the neck mostly dosent work

Holding a bat (and this was one of the weirder things)off the shoulder with two fingers dosent work.

Training instructors for a week dosent work.

It all seems to work on the principle that nobody is going to fight back. Which might be what you mean by misapply a technique. So yeah it could work on a guy who is standing there but is not suitable for a guy who is attacking you or resisting.

I would put it the other way. What in that system do you think actually works?

 

[punisher73]

I haven't done the Gracie one. It could be craptastic as well.

Trying to think what we were taught now. From memory it was all badly applied wristlocks that were meant to bring every offender under control due to the magic of pain compliance.
Then you put a red man suit on and throw the training out the door and wrestle.

One person goosenecks were always pretty silly.

Straight arm bar takedowns are silly.

Arm bar hold down don't work.

Grinding the neck mostly dosent work

Holding a bat (and this was one of the weirder things)off the shoulder with two fingers dosent work.

Training instructors for a week dosent work.

It all seems to work on the principle that nobody is going to fight back. Which might be what you mean by misapply a technique. So yeah it could work on a guy who is standing there but is not suitable for a guy who is attacking you or resisting.

I would put it the other way. What in that system do you think actually works?

Ok, I can kind of see where your training probably went (please correct me if I am wrong) and it is what I talked about "misapplying" the techniques. Wrist locks etc. are for LOW LEVELS of force (same as the pressure points), think of a non-violent sit in, or a come along where the other person isn't listening to what you are saying, but they are fighting with you. If you are trying to apply a joint lock to someone actively resisting you (punching/kicking/fighting etc) than you should NOT be trying a joint lock at that time. If someone takes up a fighting stance, you should be responding with punches/kicks at a MINIMUM and according to the system if they are trying to punch you, you deploy your baton to strike them (+1 theory).

Biggest complaint, pressure points. Again, they are designed for low levels of force. It SHOULD BE taught that if you don't gain compliance in a couple of seconds that you try another point and if nothing still, you escalate the force. Trying to apply pressure points to someone actively wrestling/fighting with you is NOT what the system teaches or suggests.

Straight arm bar takedowns: I have personally used them on about a half dozen different situations while working in the jail. Again, understanding positioning and the takedown I haven't had issues with it.. I am not sure what you mean by the "arm bar hold down". Are you referring to applying an armbar to a prone compliant subject while applying a wristlock for handcuffing purposes? If so, again it is meant to maintain control of a subject and NOT meant to magically disable someone trying to fight with to handcuff. Handcuffing is NOT done until the subject is brought under control.

"Goosenecks" (transport wrist locks): Again, I have personally used them several times to escort a semi-cooperative person to where I needed them to go. Not sure what you didn't like.

Again, to reiterate if a subject is trying to fight with you, then you should be responding with a straight punch (solar plexus/face) knee strikes, muay thai style roundhouse kicks, or low straight kicks to the lower legs, or heel palms (face/torso). Taking care of punches in PPCT is very similar to other MA's or boxing, you parry straight shots and for looping punches you strike into the arm or where the shoulder/arm meet to stop the rotation. Takedowns vary, if the person is more aggressive you use an inside takedown (muay thai style neck clinch and then snap down) or use the neck restraint takedown (which if held, chokes out the person to gain compliance).

Everything in PPCT is found in almost all martial arts styles. The individual techniques work when you have practiced them and use them in the right situation. Just like any other technique.

As far as that video you showed. Again, that has some elements to PPCT as far as the pressure point terms, but it has ALOT of stuff that just isn't in the system (like trying to put your knee on the elbow to do a takedown).

I agree that if someone has no MA experience or any other combat sport experience, 40 hours is not enough to get the fine details and be able to teach it properly. All of our instructors usually had some other type of MA experience so they understood what was being conveyed and could teach it properly.

But, again PPCT is not the "end all, be all", but it is a very good base system with which to build from. The biggest issues I see with it are agencies that don't teach it properly either because they want to limit all liability and think that you can just use pressure points to "vulcan neck pinch" the guy and he passes out, or they selected someone to get certified that has no business teaching others. I blame the individuals though and not the physical system itself.

Also, for the record. I have yet to find an actual video of straight PPCT on youtube. It is always some hybrid thing that has a bunch of questionable stuff added to it.