"Basic" poomsae.

[ETinCYQX]

Okay, I've been doing these forms for years and I have no idea where they come from. I do not think they are KKW. We call them basic one and two. Basic one is done in the shape of a capital I if you look down on it and is all long stance low blocks and middle punches. Basic two is low blocks in long stance, face punches, and then high blocks up the "middle" of the I so to speak. The whole form is done once towards the judges and basically again backwards away from the judges, "on the way back" so to speak. I might take a video at the dojang on Friday if I remember to do it.

Anyone recognize these forms? Where do they come from?

 

[puunui]

Does it look like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI0hwg3dOQs&feature=related

If so, those are called Taikyoku Shodan and Nidan and they are from the Shotokan. In korean, taikyoku is pronounced taeguek. The Moo Duk Kwan calls these forms the Kibon hyung, I think because GM HWANG Kee studied Taichi and he didn't want to confuse his taegukkwan with the taeguek hyung. What kwan are you from? I'm thinking the Moo Duk Kwan.

 

[dancingalone]

Puunui pretty much covered it. Tang Soo Do people also call them Kicho "basic" forms. Sometimes there is a third one in back stances with an inside to outside block - going up the middle is usually a side punch performed in horse stance.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Those two forms are exactly what I mean! Taikyoku Nidan, however, we use the high block for the three in a row as opposed to the face punch. Everything else is identical. Nowadays, we also apply the narrow long stance, etc. that the KKW lays out for poomsae to them so they are a little different stance wise, specifically the long stance is narrow and the "slide in and out" with the moving foot isn't there, if that makes any sense. They looked just like the video when I learned them, though.

As for the Kwan, When I started, we were associated with Grandmaster Jung Soo Park, and I learned these forms then. That was long before I knew anything other than "I do karate!" so I am not sure on anything else. We still use them today as the form for the first two ranks.

Thanks puunui!

 

[ETinCYQX]

Puunui pretty much covered it. Tang Soo Do people also call them Kicho "basic" forms. Sometimes there is a third one in back stances with an inside to outside block - going up the middle is usually a side punch performed in horse stance.

We did that one too actually now that I think about it. That one is gone now.

 

[dancingalone]

Never liked them all that much. To me at least, they're unnecessary, since the first 'full' form (Tae Geuk Il-jang, Pyung Ahn Chodan, Chon-Ji, etc.) usually covers the same material in Kibon hyung #1.

 

[puunui]

As for the Kwan, When I started, we were associated with Grandmaster Jung Soo Park, and I learned these forms then.

GM Jung Soo Park from Park's Taekwondo Federation? If so, I think it is difficult to determine what kwan he is from. He skipped around a lot, which is unusual for someone of his generation. I think his last kwan was the Chang Moo Kwan.

 

[puunui]

Never liked them all that much. To me at least, they're unnecessary, since the first 'full' form (Tae Geuk Il-jang, Pyung Ahn Chodan, Chon-Ji, etc.) usually covers the same material in Kibon hyung #1.

I don't believe the Shotokan keeps them anymore. The ones that do keep them has some sort of lineage through Yoshitaka Sensei, since it is claimed he created them. I remember we did at least the first one when I was training in Shotokan, maybe the second one too.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't believe the Shotokan keeps them anymore. The ones that do keep them has some sort of lineage through Yoshitaka Sensei, since it is claimed he created them. I remember we did at least the first one when I was training in Shotokan, maybe the second one too.

They're all over the place. Kyokushin has versions of them, Tang Soo Do, American Karate, Chayon-ryu, etc. Even Hayashi-ha Shito-ryu has adopted them - like they need any more kata to practice!

 

[mastercole]

Those two forms are exactly what I mean! Taikyoku Nidan, however, we use the high block for the three in a row as opposed to the face punch. Everything else is identical. Nowadays, we also apply the narrow long stance, etc. that the KKW lays out for poomsae to them so they are a little different stance wise, specifically the long stance is narrow and the "slide in and out" with the moving foot isn't there, if that makes any sense. They looked just like the video when I learned them, though.

As for the Kwan, When I started, we were associated with Grandmaster Jung Soo Park, and I learned these forms then. That was long before I knew anything other than "I do karate!" so I am not sure on anything else. We still use them today as the form for the first two ranks.

Thanks puunui!

I have seen up to 5 of these. They seem better suited as prep for the Pyongahn Hyung, or Palgwe Poomsae, especially for kids or adults who have a hard time with learning Poomsae.

I feel they not the best match for Taegeuk Poomsae. We teach Taegeuk Poomsae, but break it down. Example: Taegeuk Il Jang is 18 count. We go through the first 6 motions until the groups seems to have it, then the next 6, and the final 6. Then have them break out into groups and take turns leading their small group.

 

[puunui]

Tang Soo Do people also call them Kicho "basic" forms.

Kicho not kibon. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Manny]

Never liked them all that much. To me at least, they're unnecessary, since the first 'full' form (Tae Geuk Il-jang, Pyung Ahn Chodan, Chon-Ji, etc.) usually covers the same material in Kibon hyung #1.

I agree, I would rather start with taeguk illyan and so on than star with kinchos or kichos, son't see why the chobocha (beginer) must star with kicho 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Manny

 

[ETinCYQX]

GM Jung Soo Park from Park's Taekwondo Federation? If so, I think it is difficult to determine what kwan he is from. He skipped around a lot, which is unusual for someone of his generation. I think his last kwan was the Chang Moo Kwan.

That's the one. You telling me he was with Chang Moo Kwan is the most I've ever been told about him. I was very young when we went KKW but some of the Korean Karate influence is still readily apparent.

 

[puunui]

That's the one. You telling me he was with Chang Moo Kwan is the most I've ever been told about him. I was very young when we went KKW but some of the Korean Karate influence is still readily apparent.

His sons have taken over for him now and are greatly expanding the business from what I am told. I see one son, Master Cheong Park at USTC events. He is on the tournament committee, a role he had when there was a USTU. Smart guy, very articulate and very likeable. He has some videos on youtube doing poomsae.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm indescribably grateful for Park's early influence in Newfoundland. Because of the PTF school here, now we have 10+ schools in the provincial association, a number of junior and senior national champs and we're working on our own distinct competition circuit. Without GM Park we'd never have any of that, it'd still be five or six generic martial arts schools teaching in their own little bubble.

Taekwondo is still not easy to support here but at least we're united.

Out of curiosity, how long has GM Park been retired? I never hear anything from any Park's schools anymore.

EDIT: Looks like Park is KKW affiliated now, that's interesting...he wasn't when I was with him in the mid to late 1990's. We actually left Park's federation to join the WTF and set up the NL TKD Federation

 

[puunui]

Out of curiosity, how long has GM Park been retired? I never hear anything from any Park's schools anymore.

He passed away recently.

Looks like Park is KKW affiliated now, that's interesting...he wasn't when I was with him in the mid to late 1990's. We actually left Park's federation to join the WTF and set up the NL TKD Federation

He had some personal troubles with the WTF and Kukkiwon which caused him to stay away.

 

[ETinCYQX]

He passed away recently.




He had some personal troubles with the WTF and Kukkiwon which caused him to stay away.

Hadn't heard GM Park had died, I'm sorry to hear that. Like I said, I owe him a debt of gratitude.

I knew of his issues with the KKW and WTF which is why I'm surprised his sons are KKW associated now

 

[puunui]

I knew of his issues with the KKW and WTF which is why I'm surprised his sons are KKW associated now

No one wants to hold that sort of stuff against his sons. They are good people, hard working, always smiling, always respectful, which probably is why they are so successful. Send out good waves, good waves come back. Like attracts like.

 

[ETinCYQX]

That's what Taekwondo is about, at least to me.

You won't catch me ever saying anything negative about the PTF or Park in general. Don't get me wrong, I think Kukkiwon association was a step ahead, but I know where my roots are (kind of. Apparently Chang Moo Kwan.)

 

[miguksaram]

I don't believe the Shotokan keeps them anymore. The ones that do keep them has some sort of lineage through Yoshitaka Sensei, since it is claimed he created them. I remember we did at least the first one when I was training in Shotokan, maybe the second one too.

We use the Taikyoko kata for our basic forms in Shorei-ryu. We ichi is low block low-punch, ni is middle block-middle punch, san is high block-high punch. It was my understanding that they were developed by Funakoshi Sensei as basic patterns to lead into heinan kata.