Back kick

[terryl965]

I just wanted to see everyone response to the turning back kick, some says it should be done with the foot pointing down and driving the heel though your opponet, others says it does not matter if your foot is turned like a side kick.
What do you all think and what is the advantages of your way.
Terry

 

[Martial Tucker]

I just wanted to see everyone response to the turning back kick, some says it should be done with the foot pointing down and driving the heel though your opponet, others says it does not matter if your foot is turned like a side kick.
What do you all think and what is the advantages of your way.
Terry

My own opinion is, that as long as the heel portion of the foot delivers the blow, it doesn't matter whether the toes are pointing down or sideways.
( I hope I understood your question correctly)

As for striking with the heel, not only is it the hardest part of the bottom of the foot, but it is in direct alignment with the bones of the lower leg which will be directly transmitting the power generated by the upper leg and butt muscles. If you throw this kick with power and strike primarily with the front part of the foot, you risk significant injury to your ankle and calf muscles.

 

[mantis]

feels stronger when u point ur foot down
and yes as long as ur heal is the one delivering!

 

[IcemanSK]

I like the sidekick position for the foot. But, landing w/ the heel is the way to go.:ultracool

 

[FearlessFreep]

They are two seperate kicks.

Foot down is part of a 'back kick' or 'mule kick' where you back is still toward the opponent, shoulders almost square, looking over your shoulder. It invoves less turn so it can be delivered a little faster. Strike with the heel

Foot sidewards is call a 'back kick' by some but I think is more properly called a 'spining sidekick' because you end up basically in a side kick position, you just spun to get there. Strike with the blade edge of the foot

The different speeds because of how much you turn, and the different striking surface means the kicks are better suited for different situations and targets

 

[TigerWoman]

A back kick, sidekick and a spin sidekick is the same position for the foot--toes down. I know there is another position where you kick from the side and don't bring your hip around and your toes naturally go up, but IMO its not as effective and hurts my hips! Plus you have more of a tendency to land with the whole foot thus spreading the power over the foot making it alot less effective as a strike. We had a former ITF BB show us that! But it was shown as how not to do it.

The most body-aligned postion to deliver the max power is the supporting foot pointing away from your target so that your hip can deliver a sidekick straight back. And of course, hitting with your heel. Once your hip is rotated in the correct position, it is natural to point the toes down and the heel connects first when you drive your leg back. TW

 

[shesulsa]

We do a back kick toes down, side kick with toes pointing to the side and down a little, turning/spinning back kick toes down.

Well, assuming your support leg has toes pointing in the opposite direction of the opponent, either the side or back kick would be very strong. I would say that with the larger muscles of the glutes AND the rest of the trunk involved in the side kick that it would be more effective than the back kick.

The halfway kick, where your toes are not pointed downward but sideways yet performed as a back kick I would think would still be less effective than either the side or back because you only have partial muscle involvement, really and you would tend to torque the knee if the toes aren't following the line of the body.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Just for some reference from Kukkiwon:

Dwi-chagi (back kick)
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/kibon_skill_cha_5.asp?div=3

Yop-chagi (side kick)
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/kibon_skill_cha_3.asp?div=3

Both kicks can be throw with a spin from facing your opponent to turn your back to them and come into them with the kick thrusting from the hip

Both my current instructor and previous instructor insisted on us throwing the 'spinning back kick' ending as seen above, with foot down and back square (and striking with the heel or 'back sole' as in the links above). My previous instructor made the point that the 'spinning side kick' was to strike with the blade edge of the foot for better penetration. My current instructor, who hasn't talked about the 'spinning side kick', does place a strong emphasis on the sidekick itself hitting with the blade edge of the foot (as described in the above link as 'back sole and blade edge')

Because of the final position of both kicks, and the amount of rotation required for each to get in that position, the 'spinning back kick' is a bit quicker as you are about a quarter turn short at the end of wherer the 'spinning side kick' ends. Personally, I find the spnning sidekick easier to elevate to a higher target with power because of the hip position and easier to aim because the head comes around to allow me to have both eyes on the target (unlike the back kick in the picture above, both my instructors have stressed looking over your kicking shoulder to see your target)

 

[terryl965]

I know I was tought the right way, I briought it up because so many people at seminars and decussion have there point of views. I enjoyed the pics. from the Kukkiwon and so far I enjoyed everybody point of views.
Thanks to everyone
Terry

 

[Gemini]

I throw the back kick with my toes down and impact with my heel. Even when I throw a sidekick for effect, I tend to point my toes down. I know it's incorrect, but it offers greater range and power for my body mechanics. I never demonstrate it that way.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Sorry for going on about this. Quite awhile ago I asked my instructor about the difference between the two kicks ("spinning back" and "spinning side") and which was 'better'. Since I was the only one in class, we spent the next 40 minutes or so talking about the differences and simularities in great detail. Since then it's been a subject near to my heart, mostly because I recall from that conversation the fact that he had a high attention to detail and was willing to take the time to share it with me. I also learned that there was a *lot* more nuance, and thinking and rationale, behind everything I was doing then I had previously realized. *Everything* has a purpose and a rationale and a reason. Taking nothing for granted in your training and your technique, and treat nothing as trivial, but learn *why*

One other point I remember was that the different kicks are situational. Since a spin back kick is a bit faster, it's a more effective counter-move to an attack initiated by your opponent. Since the striking surface can be different, the target can also dictate what you use. Like the difference between a punch and a ridge hand strike, what are you trying to hit? The vertical foot of a back kick can go between vertical defenses easier (like arms in a guarded position..slice between them). However when going against something like a thigh, the round heeal and the round leg have a higher chance or rolling off it not dead center, in which case a horizontal strike along the blade edge gives better chance of a good hit.

 

[Marginal]

The halfway kick, where your toes are not pointed downward but sideways yet performed as a back kick I would think would still be less effective than either the side or back because you only have partial muscle involvement, really and you would tend to torque the knee if the toes aren't following the line of the body.

I've also noticed with the halfway foot position that the toes are usually pointing up because the hip's not over enough, so the people throwing that kick tend to be compromising power and stability rather than just the surface area of the attacking tool.

 

[Fluffy]

I execute and teach the toes to the side, and pulled back, but the heal at a strait line with your hip and shouldure. This is the ITF way, anyway that's the way I was taught.

Maste Fluffy

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I just wanted to see everyone response to the turning back kick, some says it should be done with the foot pointing down and driving the heel though your opponet, others says it does not matter if your foot is turned like a side kick.
What do you all think and what is the advantages of your way.
Terry

I personally find that I'm more accurate with my foot turned. However, the foot down is the technically correct method at most schools. Personally, I think it depends upon the individual and what works best for them.

 

[Fluffy]

Could there be a difference between ITF and WTF TKD styles with this? Heck could there be a difference between TSD and TKD?

Master Fluffy

 

[karatekid1975]

Wow! Good thread. I also enjoyed everyone's views on this.

Anyways, Fluffy, to me there is. I was in TSD first. I had so much trouble with the back kick. I practiced it so much that in TKD, I just can't change it. People say I kick funny. But it's the way I was taught.

If you look at FearlessFreep's post with the pics, The first pic is how they do the back kick and spinning back kick in my current Dojang (TKD). That's how they end up. But the second pic, is how I end up with the back kick/spinning back kick (my foot looks like it's in a side kick position with the heal as the striking surfice, and toes pointing down while looking at my partner). Some say it is a spinning side kick. Neither of my dojangs used this phrase. So, to me, it is a spinning back kick.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Two points or opinions to ponder with these kicks. 1). More power is generated when the hips fully turn. When doing a turning back kick and the back is facing the opponent, the hips have been stopped in the rotation. Granted, the kick will still have more than enough power to do damage, but for some folks (operative word "some"), stopping the hips that quickly and thrusting the leg that hard can and will lead to joint(s) medical problems. Now for the sidekick version or for that matter, any version of the sidekick. It was eluded too that the kick is delivered with the foot in the blade position. Not really interested in trying to debate folks on this issue, but I will offer advise that was given to me by my Korean instructors. The heel has more penetrating power and the entire foot and leg are in a strong alignment. The blade angle can cause the ankle to break, if whatever your hitting is too strong or the angle of attack is not right. I realize that the blade angle looks much better in forms, but I'd rather look bad than limp.

 

[Fluffy]

Wow! Good thread. I also enjoyed everyone's views on this.

Anyways, Fluffy, to me there is. I was in TSD first. I had so much trouble with the back kick. I practiced it so much that in TKD, I just can't change it. People say I kick funny. But it's the way I was taught.

If you look at FearlessFreep's post with the pics, The first pic is how they do the back kick and spinning back kick in my current Dojang (TKD). That's how they end up. But the second pic, is how I end up with the back kick/spinning back kick (my foot looks like it's in a side kick position with the heal as the striking surfice, and toes pointing down while looking at my partner). Some say it is a spinning side kick. Neither of my dojangs used this phrase. So, to me, it is a spinning back kick.

Is there a difference between your back kick, reverse side kick, and your spinning side kick. Were I practice the reverse and spin, I really do not practice the back kick as much.

TSD, is a bit different......but you can see the simularities. Chamber theory, point of impact and extention theory are much the same. Phylosophy is a bit different, forms are a bit different - but if you watch some of the TSD forms and compre them to the Generals 'Sine Wave' movements in the ITF forms......they are on the same path.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The heel has more penetrating power and the entire foot and leg are in a strong alignment. The blade angle can cause the ankle to break, if whatever your hitting is too strong or the angle of attack is not right.

What's your target? Target determines situation determines what to strike with. What works best on the top of the head? Not a knife hand...maybe an elbow... Against stomach, floating ribs or thigh/top of knee, the blade edge is going to be very effective. Against walls or lots of briks or something you're going to have problems, but against most targets on a human body? On my last test, the breaking portion was a sidekick of two boards and I use the blade edge strike with no problem.

Angle of attack is going to effect punches as well...off a bit and you can really hurt your wrist. So you practice over and over and over so that when you hit something, everything from the striking surface to your shoulder, etc...is in proper alignmen. I've hurt my foot much less from sidekicks then I have my hands and wrists from punches

Personally I find that when I strike with the heel it gives more drive in moving the target but striking with the blade gives more snap and cut into the target. So both are part of the tool set.

 

[Fluffy]

The heel has more penetrating power and the entire foot and leg are in a strong alignment. The blade angle can cause the ankle to break, if whatever your hitting is too strong or the angle of attack is not right.

What's your target? Target determines situation determines what to strike with. What works best on the top of the head? Not a knife hand...maybe an elbow... Against stomach, floating ribs or thigh/top of knee, the blade edge is going to be very effective. Against walls or lots of briks or something you're going to have problems, but against most targets on a human body? On my last test, the breaking portion was a sidekick of two boards and I use the blade edge strike with no problem.

Angle of attack is going to effect punches as well...off a bit and you can really hurt your wrist. So you practice over and over and over so that when you hit something, everything from the striking surface to your shoulder, etc...is in proper alignmen. I've hurt my foot much less from sidekicks then I have my hands and wrists from punches

Personally I find that when I strike with the heel it gives more drive in moving the target but striking with the blade gives more snap and cut into the target. So both are part of the tool set.

Agreed, good post.