Spinning Side Kick versus Spinning Back Kick

[FearlessFreep]

OK, I understand...I think...the difference between the two. Both start with a spin on the front foot and bring tha back foot through close to the body.

The back kick ends up being out with the toes down and you still have your back to the opponent, looking over your shoulder at the target, at point of impact, striking with the heel.

The sidekick ends up being like a normal sidekick, out from the hip, striking with the side of the foot.


My question is, what's the difference, in terms of when you would use them and what their tactical advantages or disadvantages would be

 

[terryl965]

Back kick will generate more power but done incorrectly it leaves you open, sidekick has power and helps to cover you up for the roundhouse.

 

[stoneheart]

They're both usually thrown as counterattacks in response to something like a roundhouse kick. The back kick is quicker to get off, but it requires strength in a different part of the leg than the spinning side kick does. I find the back kick more difficult myself, and I don't throw it that often when sparring. The spinning sidekick is a staple for me, though.

 

[TigerWoman]

Huh? That's that the same kick.

A back kick done during sparring is just a side kick. When you spin a back kick it is a spinning side kick. Both have the remaining leg with the foot pointed the way you are facing. Both have toes pointed down on the kicking leg. Both you hit with the heel. Why use the side of the foot when the heel is much more powerful. We use the side edge for crescents and that's it. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

I asked my sabomnim the question at tonight's class and got an informative response.

Assuming a fighting stance or back stance, a spinning back kick only turns your hips about 90 degress, the side kick turns your hips roughly 180. This means the back kick is faster to get off. However, the extra half turn in the side kick also closes distance with the target and can be launched at targets a bit further further away. Simularly, a back-kick can be used against closer targets where the target would be too close to get around on a side-kick.

Also, since the back kick keeps the kicking foot vertical, it's tougher to use against vertical targets, like someone with their side to you, or against a thigh (in non-sparring situations) as the kick has a higher tendancy to glance off to the side. The sidekick uses a horizontal foot (and we strike with the side of the foot, but only at the back, under the heel and ankle) so it's less likely to slide off a vertically oriented target.

Another point is that since the back kick is swung under the hip, it can pick up momentum through the swing that the sidekick does not, giving it more power (I think there is also a difference in power based on general mechanics and muscle groups involved, but I'm not sure)

That's what I mostly remember. What I came away with is, like most techniques, what and when you use it depends on the target, the distance, and the desired outcome (and desired next move)

 

[jfarnsworth]

FearlessFreep, I agree with what you said. I like it as that's a good analogy. :asian:

Let's make it a little simpler and say that the back kick is a front kick in reverse. Meaning, let's throw a front kick then immediatley retract it directly into a back kick. This will show us the difference between the 2 kicks.

 

[TigerWoman]

On a spinning sidekick the front supporting leg rotates 180° facing the opposite direction from a fighting or back stance. Your hips/back have rotated only 90° to become square with the target and the sidekick is made toes down, heel striking.

On a spinning back kick if you rotate only 90° on the front leg (half the previous rotation) from a fighting or back stance then you would have your
hips facing the left direction not backward to your target and no way would you be able to strike the original target without an additional twist to 180° --which is the same as the first description.

We only do these (as they are the same to me) close to the body with a snap. There is no "swing". TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think we have a terminology clash, your description of a spinning sidekick is exactly as I would think of as a spinning back kick

What I'm calling a spinning side-kick is just a straight side kick out from the hip, but with a spin to close distance and gain energy

 

[TigerWoman]

FearlessFreep, I agree with what you said. I like it as that's a good analogy. :asian:

Let's make it a little simpler and say that the back kick is a front kick in reverse. Meaning, let's throw a front kick then immediatley retract it directly into a back kick. This will show us the difference between the 2 kicks.

Yes a back kick is a front kick in reverse but the striking area is the heel not the ball of the foot as in a front kick. Note though, we weren't just talking about a back kick, it was a spinning back kick. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

Yes a back kick is a front kick in reverse but the striking area is the heel not the ball of the foot as in a front kick

Agreed

Note though, we weren't just talking about a back kick, it was a spinning back kick

Which, I think, is the same thing, except in a spinning back kick you start out facing the target and spin around to face away from them as you kick

 

[TigerWoman]

I think we have a terminology clash, your description of a spinning sidekick is exactly as I would think of as a spinning back kick

What I'm calling a spinning side-kick is just a straight side kick out from the hip, but with a spin to close distance and gain energy

Okay, if you are throwing a straight out thrusting sidekick from the hip (from your lead front leg I would imagine) how does the spin come into it?

If you rotate the front leg/ball of the foot as it stands, turning your front foot around 180° counter-clockwise for perfect form-line and power-for the foot to face back and then sidekick. That is just a back leg sidekick plain and simple, no spinning. And you can go in on that if you step before positioning your foot.

If you do spin sidekick you, you are rotating on the front but turning toward your back, clock-wise 180°.

If it is a 360° spin sidekick, you step forward with your back leg, spin on it 180° and sidekick to the back. Maybe that's too far down the line though for you.

I like the spin sidekick for speed and stopping power. The back leg side kick as Terry I think said, leaves you open as it is slower.

I hope I have been clearer. Yes it is a terminology problem. I experience it frequently between ITF and WTF. Sorry, TW

 

[jfarnsworth]

Yes a back kick is a front kick in reverse but the striking area is the heel not the ball of the foot as in a front kick. Note though, we weren't just talking about a back kick, it was a spinning back kick. TW

Regardless of whether or not you are stationary or spinnning the mechanics will still be the same. I would never attempt a spinning back kick and hit withe the ball of the foot either. I was making the analogy so everyone was on the same page.
When performing the spinning back kick your groin is not exposed as in the spinning side kick. It's safter for covering your groin. It could be used close in. You can also recover quicker from a spinning back kick in case something goes wrong.

 

[FearlessFreep]

how does the spin come into it?

Bad choice of words on my part in trying to describe that I'm talking about the normal hip/knee/foot motion of a sidekick but with a spin

That is just a back leg sidekick plain and simple, no spinning.

Yup!

If you do spin sidekick you, you are rotating on the front but turning toward your back, clock-wise 180°.

*That's* what I was calling a spinning sidekick It still comes from the rear leg (from where you started. Assuming fighting stance, left foor forward. Your still going to kick with the right(back) leg, but instead of turning in counterclock-wise, you turn backward clockwise as you pull the kicking leg up. You still end up in the same position as a rear-side sidekick, you just got there going the other way


If it is a 360° spin sidekick, you step forward with your back leg, spin on it 180° and sidekick to the back. Maybe that's too far down the line though for you.

Cool


I hope I have been clearer.

I think so, thanks for the patience

 

[TigerWoman]

Spinning back kick = spinning side kick to me. Sorry, just don't understand your terminology. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

When performing the spinning back kick your groin is not exposed as in the spinning side kick. It's safter for covering your groin. It could be used close in. You can also recover quicker from a spinning back kick in case something goes wrong.

Agreed on all counts.

One thing I like about the spinning sidekick, though, although this is an advanced technique that I've only barely practiced against a pad, is intentionally missing off to the side, and then using a heel-rake to come into the side. I've never done this, but my sabomnim did it to me last week Except he was very controlled and just tapped my chin with the ball of his foot rather than truly striking my head with his heel (it was this particular sparring session that led to discovery of the difference between a spinning sidekick, a jumping/spinning back kick, and adding the heel-rake to the end of the sidekick)

My head knows a lot more than my legs have caught up to

 

[jfarnsworth]

It appears as though he was nice to you on his spinning hook kick. My instructor used to teach us both ways with the heel and the ball of the foot. The ball of the foot for (obviously being nice) just being a little out of range and for taking it easy on the other students in the class during sparring.
There's more but I didn't know if we wanted to get into the spin back kick/side kick/hook kick :idunno: thing. My terminology is different maybe because of Kenpo being my primary art.

 

[FearlessFreep]

It appears as though he was nice to you on his spinning hook kick.

He was, I've only been sparring a few weeks (and we don't put a strong emphasis on it in terms of class time) and I've gotten lucky because he normally only allows yellow belts and above to even start doing sparring exercises and I'm only orange (for some trange reason, he puts orange below yellow). Anyway, my kids made yellow belt so I started to take them to the class that the more experienced students were sparring in to help them out and he let me slowly start joining in as well (partially because I'm in class four to six times aweek as opposed to two or three for most others at the school and partially because I'm a fast learner)

So anyway, he sparred with me last week and by his moves and mine I could tell very much that he was being very instructional and very controlled. He did hit me hard enough to wind me so it was not all shadow boxing, but most of his moves were designed to teach me something (the foot to the chin was to remind me to keep my hands up in guard position)

Mostly, I had to overcome my fear...I was so nervous about getting hit back that I launched all my attacks form too far away, or backed off before they'd really landed. I'm still very new at this and there are a lot of natural inclinations (like self-preservation) to overcome

 

[XxTKDPenguinxX]

We do not teach a "back kick" persay. The way our side kicks are taught, they resemble a back kick (in other MA styles). Our technique to a side kick is to pivot the base foot so that the heel is pointed in the direction of the target, thus turning your hips to expose part of your rump at the target. Bring the knee up to your chest (or as high as you can without bending or hunching over) while the lower leg and foot are lifted to point the bottom of your heel at the target. Extend your leg to force your heel into the target and retract (or rechamber) the leg before placing it back to the floor.

Being from another MA style in the past, the way that we do this technique would be closer to a back kick. The whole principle here is to use your heel as a type of "battering ram".

As far as a "spinning back or side kick... To me, they are virtually the same. However, we call them reverse side kicks since they usually come from the back leg with your body rotating backwards into your target.

I recommend, in sparring, to work on making it appear more as a back kick... meaning the leg is chambered and starting its path to the target before your shoulders turn past 180 degrees and your dropping the kicking leg to allow for a counter attack from your opponant.

We were working on this very thing last night with a 6th Dan and soon to be Master (my instructor's instructor:asian

Either way, they are effective as an offensive or defensive weapon.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I think this just has to be one of those things where we all have to be in the same room together.

 

[bignick]

I think this just has to be one of those things where we all have to be in the same room together.

I think you called this one