ATA experience

[Kframe]

Balrog it hit me while reading this whole thread that honestly I think people are making way to much about time to black belt. It was posted once in this thread and ignored that in Korea that it only takes a little over a year to reach BB. I have said it before, I am not young any more at 32. I have always wanted to do TKD Like my father did, and actually use it(and my other acquired skills of course) in the a Amature cage fight. I do not have the luxury of time any more.

Honestly I don't like the fact that so many TMA force people to wait 5 years before black belt. The reason black belt is so important is, and ill quote the KKW instructor I talked to. "You really start to learn Tae Kwon Do at black belt" I don't want to waste years in color belts only to be 40 before I actually start learning the real art.. It does not take me very long to learn a movement, and apply it as I am already finding out.

Honestly if you don't really start learning the art and how to actually use it till black belt, why prolong the process till they reach the point were your actually teaching them the art?

So ya all the hate aimed at the ATA for there quick belt process is stupid in light of the fact One can hop the pond and get it in a year in a legit Korean dojang..

Don't take this as a insult ATA guys here, but I honestly never thought I would be defending your org.. It feels strange, I used to be a hater.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Balrog it hit me while reading this whole thread that honestly I think people are making way to much about time to black belt. It was posted once in this thread and ignored that in Korea that it only takes a little over a year to reach BB. ...

Honestly I don't like the fact that so many TMA force people to wait 5 years before black belt.

I moved to a new city and was checking out schools. I was advised at one school that he would accept my red belt but it would be 1 year before getting a red stripe belt, to ensure that I was a respectful and loyal student.

I was thinking that it only takes 1 year in Korea to go from white to BB, and here it's a year for 1 belt! In particular, it surprised me that the statement was made without seeing me practice (and hence how good/bad my techniques are) and interacting with the instructors and other students. But ..his school, his rules.

 

[dancingalone]

Honestly I don't like the fact that so many TMA force people to wait 5 years before black belt. The reason black belt is so important is, and ill quote the KKW instructor I talked to. "You really start to learn Tae Kwon Do at black belt" I don't want to waste years in color belts only to be 40 before I actually start learning the real art.. It does not take me very long to learn a movement, and apply it as I am already finding out.

Not to rehash the "correct" timeframe to chodan arguments, but I've never been totally comfortable with people making blanket statements like that. It makes me wonder what exactly was taught and practiced during the colored belt period if one hasn't really learned TKD until he makes BB. The basics are the secret to any martial art. You learn basics as you progress up to BB. And hopefully you have become strong physically and spiritually as well as part of the training. To me, that is certainly TKD.

<shrugs> Not really looking for an argument by the way. Just interjecting a needed counterpoint IMO.

 

[Kframe]

Dancing I agree with you. I have talked to a few KKW instructors and they are all telling me the same. Yet One can go to Korea and learn the same basics in just over a year? From what I was told, they only teach you the movements from O to black 1, then from there on you actually go about learning to use them in situations correctly. If that's the case, I don't want to waste time I color belts. I want to get to the meat and taters sooner rather then later. Especially if you don't start to actually learn the art till BB1.

I may not be on the path to starting tkd soon(thought I was, but time is still not right.) I will honestly be giving the ATA a hard look.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancing I agree with you. I have talked to a few KKW instructors and they are all telling me the same. Yet One can go to Korea and learn the same basics in just over a year? From what I was told, they only teach you the movements from O to black 1, then from there on you actually go about learning to use them in situations correctly. If that's the case, I don't want to waste time I color belts. I want to get to the meat and taters sooner rather then later. Especially if you don't start to actually learn the art till BB1.

Not everyone is the same. It may be normative to achieve a BB in one year in Korea. However, I think it takes longer in the US usually. I have KKW rank. The black belts in my dojang often opt to register their rank with the KKW as well. It takes about 3 - 3.5 years to attain 1st dan at my school and honestly I'm not the first owner, so the previous guy matched American norms as well in terms of tenure before awarding a BB.

I may not be on the path to starting tkd soon(thought I was, but time is still not right.) I will honestly be giving the ATA a hard look.

My niece and nephew have been active in ATA for years. They enjoy the big tournament circuit and the family friendly training atmosphere. Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

 

[msmitht]

$750 for a belt test? I gotta raise my rates again.

That school does not sound typical for an ATA school. As I mentioned earlier, you're gonna have some schools under the left end of the bell curve in any organization, and you may have had the misfortune to encounter one. If so, I'm sorry. But your blanket statement:



is painting with a broad brush. Have you seen most TKD schools? Or are you simply basing that statement on having seen one or two?

Oh, and by the way, one-armed blocks are perfectly valid.

I have 4th Dan ITF, 5th Dan MDK, 5th Dan KKW and have been a brown belt in bjj since 2010. I've been teaching since 1989 and yes, I have trained at many different schools. Former infantry Marine. You might say that I've been around a while. I will agree that there are many poor schools out there, regardless of style or affiliation. Most schools that do teach proper self defense have instructors that have trained in other arts like hapkido or judo.
So my " blanket statement" is not coming from ignorance or a general dislike of the ATA, which I will admit to. It comes from experience.
And no, one arm blocks are not acceptable in the majority of tkd, Tsd or karate. Remember that outside the USA the only two styles of tkd that exist in great numbers are the ITF and the WTF.

 

[Kframe]

Sorry smith, you are not correct sir. Why on gods green earth would you need 2 movements when one, either one of the two will suffice for defense against the attack? When you are being attacked with something fast like a punch you don't have time to for the formal basic movement. You have to use the movement most appropriate with your goals. Be it the primary or secondary movement..

 

[msmitht]

Well frame, the entire ITF, wtf and most tangsoodo would agree with me so your objection doesn't bother me in the slightest. And BTW, if a fast punch was coming I would move out of the way using boxing type movement(slip/weave/Bob or duck and cover depending on the exact situation).
Honestly, when was the last time you saw a real punch get blocked? Watch boxing, muay Thai or the ufc. Doesn't happen.
Besides I was referring to blocking as a part of kata, poomsae or huyng.

 

[msmitht]

Sorry smith, you are not correct sir. Why on gods green earth would you need 2 movements when one, either one of the two will suffice for defense against the attack? When you are being attacked with something fast like a punch you don't have time to for the formal basic movement. You have to use the movement most appropriate with your goals. Be it the primary or secondary movement..

Primary or secondary? How could the secondary movement in Ogul Mahkee, Bakkat Mahkee or any other tratraditional block be used to defend a punch? I am assuming that you actually know what you are speaking about. A high block starts with arms crossed, primary arm down and across waist and the secondary arm(the non blocking one) crossed and touching opposite shoulder. As one rotates hips the primary arm is thrust upwards on the outside of the secondary arm which is pulled down and back to the belt.
So how exactly will the secondary arm help block?
Unless you are referring to crossing one arm left/right or right/left in which case it is just basically flailing and you would be better off taking some boxing classes(had 3 years worth on USMC west team) to learn how to keep head moving and avoid punches instead of relying on a block that, unless done 10000 times, you have little or no chance of redirecting. Even practiced that many times it still will not work unless the punch is telegraphed.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Honestly, when was the last time you saw a real punch get blocked?

Every class I have been in.

 

[Kframe]

Oh ya, and boxing has a defense similar to the inward soto uke. If you actually boxed, as I have, you would know that.. In case you forgot, here is the video.. Here it is, lead hand inside

and here it is on the rear hand

.

Now it does not take rocket science to figure out that the motion of that parry and the motion of a inside soto uke are similar. The only differences between that parry and the combat applied soto uke, is the usage of the palm vs the forearm. Honestly if you have that many titles to your name I expected you to know that.

Oh ya, since you mentioned muay thai, guess what, they have a downward parry, that is shockingly similar to the lower block standard to karate and tkd. Here is a nice long video in which it is found..

skip to 18.09-18.12.

One thing, I have learned about using TMA blocks, is that you have to use evasion with them. Here is a better martial artist then either of us talking about just that topic. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/evasion-vs-blocking-with-evasion.html
Here is his take on why blocks do work. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html

Smith, you proved you have no idea what your talking about. Honestly, no point in further discussion with you. Lets face it, you will not convince me, and I wont convince you.. Neither of us will change the others mind.

 

[msmitht]

Every class I have been in.

Not referring to one steps or per arranged sparring. I mean a real, trying to break your nose/ face punch that is being timed/distanced to hit you, not the air in front of your face.
If that is the case I would love to see a video clip and will say "kudos to you"! You do something that the best fighters(ufc, ITF, wtf, boxing, muay Thai and street brawlers) are not able to do without additional head movement.

 

[msmitht]

Lol. Frame you make me laugh. You are referring to using head movement and " slipping the jab". As to the muay Thai downward block against a push kick, that has nothing to do with a face punch or blocking in kATA, poomsae or hyung which is what I was discussing.
I was citing my levels so that anyone reading would see that I actually have trained and know what I am talking about. Your training time and levels are? And yes, I did box with the USMC west team in the early 90's.
Your pathetic attempts to insult me are just that, pathetic. We are speaking about apples and oranges. You are attempting to show that you are right but not staying specific to the subject. Saying that we will not agree and ending the discussion reminds me of a child saying "I'm right and your wrong" then turning around and running away.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Not referring to one steps or per arranged sparring. I mean a real, trying to break your nose/ face punch that is being timed/distanced to hit you, not the air in front of your face.
If that is the case I would love to see a video clip and will say "kudos to you"! You do something that the best fighters(ufc, ITF, wtf, boxing, muay Thai and street brawlers) are not able to do.

I am not sure what prearranged sparring is, we don't even do that for demonstrations, the free sparring we do may be predominately non-contact but if you do not defend yourself properly you will get hit.Any decent martial artist has more skill than a common street brawler, WTF in the Olympic sparring do not use blocks but the non Olympic types and the ITF are taught blocks, boxing is a evasion style that still uses parries, UFC and Muay Thai fighters still use them but not as much as they use evasion more often. Its not that they are not able to do them its just that they don't use them much. I will try to find a sparring video for you but we don't make a lot of them because we train for self defence, not showing off.

 

[Kframe]

Sigh.... all your really saying is blah blah blah blocks dont work. Really, we already have a thread on that. I merely posted my counter points as to why they do work. Truthfully if you didn't trust more then half of the art you were practicing, and had to go learn boxing to fill the supposed gaps, why bother with the original art to begin with?

Nothing you have said has swayed me one bit. My boxing coach uses parries and interceptions all the time, not just covers and slips. You cant evade every shot coming at you, nor can you block every shot coming at you. Hence why you need to do both, evade and block.

As I said, I can not hope to convince you, nor can you hope to convince me. Im not done with this thread, just done with you.

 

[msmitht]

I am not sure what prearranged sparring is, we don't even do that for demonstrations, the free sparring we do may be predominately non-contact but if you do not defend yourself properly you will get hit.Any decent martial artist has more skill than a common street brawler, WTF in the Olympic sparring do not use blocks but the non Olympic types and the ITF are taught blocks, boxing is a evasion style that still uses parries, UFC and Muay Thai fighters still use them but not as much as they use evasion more often. Its not that they are not able to do them its just that they don't use them much. I will try to find a sparring video for you but we don't make a lot of them because we train for self defence, not showing off.

Good reply. Of course they are taught how to cover, slip and counter. But they are constantly engaging in full contact. Evading is essential.
I have several friends in the Gracie family and you can probably guess as to how they view no contact sparring. Then again getting repeatedly punched in the face can be discouraging. Learned that one the hard way first time in boxing ring.

 

[msmitht]

Sigh.... all your really saying is blah blah blah blocks dont work. Really, we already have a thread on that. I merely posted my counter points as to why they do work. Truthfully if you didn't trust more then half of the art you were practicing, and had to go learn boxing to fill the supposed gaps, why bother with the original art to begin with?

Nothing you have said has swayed me one bit. My boxing coach uses parries and interceptions all the time, not just covers and slips. You cant evade every shot coming at you, nor can you block every shot coming at you. Hence why you need to do both, evade and block.

As I said, I can not hope to convince you, nor can you hope to convince me. Im not done with this thread, just done with you.

I'll say it again: I was primarily talking about KaTA, poomsae and hyungs. Your attempts to discredit are not working and are making you look bad. As this thread is supposed to be about self defense I will answer your question regarding why I bother with kkw tkd: because I love it. No single art is without fault and yes, I looked to fill in the gaps like any intelligent person would.

 

[Kframe]

Fail to see how this pointless discussion makes anyone look good..

 

[Kframe]

I dont see any attempt to discredit you. I was honestly asking why you ditched nearly 50% of your art to fill in perceived gaps. At your level of rank your basicly a instructor. WTH do you tell your students about the movements they are spending countless hours doing? Do you spend class time teaching boxing/mma/muay thai defense instead of KKW defensive techniques? Did you delete the KKW defensive techniques from your course syllabus?

Don't take that as a attack either, I honestly want to know. Because by the way you describe your self, I see more kickboxer/mma then anything resembling a traditionaly minded TKD. If that is truly how you practice, then I wonder if more KKW instructors will move or are moving away from traditional teachings to a more kickboxer/mma type skillset and methodology.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Not referring to one steps or per arranged sparring. I mean a real, trying to break your nose/ face punch that is being timed/distanced to hit you, not the air in front of your face.
If that is the case I would love to see a video clip and will say "kudos to you"! You do something that the best fighters(ufc, ITF, wtf, boxing, muay Thai and street brawlers) are not able to do without additional head movement.

Also one of the reasons why blocking is not used extensively in these disciplines is that blocks do not score points, only attacks do.