As requested Sikaran (long)

[tshadowchaser]

Sikaran has two main systems that I know of today. One still bases in the Philippine Islands (PI) and one based in the U.S.A. There are several systems that teach Sikaran with Arnis but I will not disscuss them here.
I study the U.S.based system based on the teachings of Grandmaster Lois Lagarejos. This system will be celebrating its fifty years of teaching in the U.S. this Aug.
Like many styles of fighting arts in the PI there is no written history that I know of. Sikaran was taught in many of the villages for as long as anyone could remember. Its origins have truly been lost (no matter what some may say).Durring the Spanish rule and even later Sikaran was practiced as a game (much like the Chiness others used dance). There are two main strikes in the system Pangahilo (paraliseing) and Pamatory (killing), the feet are the main weapon but the hands deffenately are used as weopons also. In truth there is no block all moves are strikes.
I will not disscuss the System taught by Milton Geronimo other than to say that if you read the articles written about it and quotes from Geronimo you will find many things that do not seem to ring true.As far as that systems fighting it is mostly footwork and much is stil played within the circle. I will say if you read Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture you will notice that Geronimo seems to claim to have taught the koreans the spinning back kick (I doubt this very much)
I will not FLAME geronimo or his system unless asked direct questions. I will say he did not nor did his grand father discover/create Sikaran
If any of you study a Sikaran Based system I would love to here about it As I said there is much I do not know
Shadow

 

[tshadowchaser]

As the first post was a follow up to the art I study (as a primary art) and mor just for information i would like to disscuss the circle. Contestants in a Sikaran match (at least in mordern times in the Philippiens) will draw a circle one person will enter and the challangers will try to kick him out of it. If you kick someone out you enter and so on untill there is a champ who is not kicked out.
I have heard that this is a game even children once played, however I have a diffrent idea on why it was played. Lets consider that in times passed a prisoner was placed in a circle and if he were to leave the circle he was put to death or would lose a hand or have a companion put to death. With no weopan except your feet and maybe your hands to defend yourslef with the game becomes something else.
The circle also teaches one to fight within a very confind area. the smaller the circle the less space to run or manuver.
Just somme of my thoughts on it.
Shadow

 

[arnisador]

All this is very interesting; thank you. What percentage of the art is hand strikes and are they punches, chops, or what? Also in the circle matches you mention, are the kicks done more as pushes or are they true penetrating kicks?

I remember being told that in sipa and/or sikaran one often crossed one's hands across one's chest while kicking, as though holding a package--is this so?

 

[tshadowchaser]

The hand movements I have are much like any art that uses hands. Chops, punches,Fnger srtikes, most or all open and closed posistions as long as they are directed at a nerve complex or a cavity, muscle origin,or penetrating to a vital organ. Some of them seem to have a chiness enfluence and be much like crane or snake techniques while others are very much Hard style (punch or block thruogh something breaking or destroying it in the process).
The kicking with hands on chest sounds like something being done in the circle to make the person use his feet completly with no hand involment.I have used it as a teaching concept or had the student place his hands behind him (simulateing being tied or handcuffed) As a general rule I tell my students to use whatever hand movement is going to stop the kick.
I have also been taught ( and teach)student to block and trap much like I have learned and seen in most of the arts from the P.I.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I have also been taught ( and teach)student to block and trap much like I have learned and seen in most of the arts from the P.I.

I assume you mean hands--or is there a notion of trapping the feet?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Feet can be trapped and locked. as with the hands it depends on the first block and how it is applied and what you do next with it. I think anyone who has seen submission fights has seen foot and leg traps and locks.
There are ways of trapping a leg with your legs also but to me they take much more practice to be abe to do when not useing static selfdefence (Karate type) trainng. To do them at full speed in sparring or combat is verrrrry difficult.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Feet can be trapped and locked. as with the hands it depends on the first block and how it is applied and what you do next with it. I think anyone who has seen submission fights has seen foot and leg traps and locks.
There are ways of trapping a leg with your legs also but to me they take much more practice to be abe to do when not useing static selfdefence (Karate type) trainng. To do them at full speed in sparring or combat is verrrrry difficult.

One of the FCS guros I train with uses Sikaran techniques to lock my legs up all the time. It's neat as hell in hindsight, but damn frustrating while he's actually doing it to me. He uses footwork to immobilize my knees and/or ankles or to destabilize my structure. I'm worried about getting the palisut flow down, and he's taking my feet out from under me.

Grrrr.

Cthulhu

 

[tshadowchaser]

I love it.The foot trap works great against anyone useing a wide stance. It is also frustrating to TKD people

 

[Black Grass]

At a Dan Inosanto seminar I remember discussing with him Sikaran. He said that the old style there was slapping of the hands and thighs like what you see in some Silat systems. Does your method do this or did they do it?

I have only seen Geronimo method when I was in the Philippines and they don't do this.

Regards,
Black Grass

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not real sure how you mean slapping.
Just to make noise or use as a distraction No. Slapping as in a strike to these areas Yes but I would not really call that a slap.
As a cover up for drawing a weapon from sleeve or leg sheath Why notSorry I do not know enoughabout the Salit systems to give a better answer
Shadow

 

[Black Grass]

Yes slapping for the purpose of distracting.

I'm interested in how modern Sikaran is practice.
-Is it practiced mostly through forms or just technique training?
-Is the circle fight still part of you regular training?
-Does your school have a hari?
-Do you hold open tourneys under Sikaran rules?

Regards,
Black Grass

 

[tshadowchaser]

Because of the laws in the U.S. and the prohibitive cost of isurence most Sikaran tournaments are held By the rules you see in most karate tournaments ( head gear, hand and foot pads) I've tried to talk my instructor into going back to bare knuckle no pads or protective gear (except cups, and mouth guard) but he and the head of our system want the contests more gentle and in the spirit of brotherhood these days.
Check the web site listed with my profile and you will find a tournament listed in Aug. It's our 50th anniversty in the u.S. and We are inviting all practictioners of Sikaran and the Filipino Arts to come and meet each other. Maybe if enough people write to the tournament directors asking for nonpaded events or a special stick fighting ring they can talk my instructor into it. (Yes that was a call for help,My lone voice is not enough to get it done.In fact I have been told not to bring the subject up so if you do write or email PLEASE just ask if there will be such events or suggest that they might be good in a Sikaran tournament) Thanks
Now back to the questions. Yes my students fight in the circle off and on. Practice consists of a lot of hand and foot drills, forms, and much sparring. Depends on the day of the week and my mood, or my instructors mood when I visit and train with him.
Shadow

 

[thekuntawman]

from what i saw of sikaran (the organisation in the philippines, and i dont know who is the teacher there), the art looks a lot like tae kwon do. there hands are down, and they use it only to block and trap and sweep the leg and the opponents balance. i remember seeing them in the karate tournament and they usually win with out using much hands. in my opinion they are better than a lot of tae kwon do, because even when they are fighting against kyokushinkai or goju who are both good with hands, they can beet them with their feet.

i fought one once and we went to overtime, and i beat him by only one point. i can say i learned a lot from remembering his movement and how he got me. he was very confident and it was easy to understimate beating him becuase he fights with his hands down. (i put my hands down a lot too)

anyway, many styles have sikaran as a skill in the style, like my own, but we refer to sikaran the use of kickings to hurt the opponent legs and mess up his balance and sweep the feet.

but like tshadow, i laugh when i read about this guy geronimo who said his father made up sikaran. but then pilipinos usually make up "whopper" when they get old you have to just keep it in mind, but they can still teach you many great lessons that young teachers like i cant do yet.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Geronimno studied TKD and issinru (I belive) So you would see quite a bit of TKD influence in his System.
May the biggest difference in the the two styles is our use of hands
Leg checks,traps, and sweeps are only one part of how I was trained but Im glad to hear the same things are still taught in other places.
I trained with some of Geronimos people when I was in Calif. They realy had no concept of hand fighting But I only knew 2 of them and they may have been exceptions to the norm
Shadow
PS I have never said that Geronimo's people did not have good abilities just that there where diffrences in the styles and our preception of the history of Sikaran

 

[Black Grass]

tshadowchaser,

In your method Sikaran, when you use a weapon does it incorporate kick, to be more specific high kicks?

I know there are some sytles of FMA that use lowline kicking, like Pekiti Tirsia, but that is generally the limit. Most teachers will tell you kicking high against a weapon is a good way to lose a leg or a foot. I have seen capoeira guys use high kicking in there weapons, the stick basically is use to cover and trap so a kick can be made.

Regards,
Vince

 

[tshadowchaser]

I teach my students to do a lot of low line kicks (groin down, knees ankles,mid thigh make great targets)
We do do high kicks some fancy some dead stright on but I do not reccomend them against weapons.
Again it would depend on the flexability of the student and the occasion