Arm Breaks

Yoshiyahu

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Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?


Jip sau = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break


One of my Favorite Techniques is Tok Sau and Pak Sau combined. In my Lineage we also utilize Tok Sau and Fok Sau as arm break. Also we use the double Wu Sau guards as Arm break against a horizontal fist.
 

bs10927

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Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?


Jip sau = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break


One of my Favorite Techniques is Tok Sau and Pak Sau combined. In my Lineage we also utilize Tok Sau and Fok Sau as arm break. Also we use the double Wu Sau guards as Arm break against a horizontal fist.

i know the move in Chum Kiu. just didn't know the name of it. lol
 

Sandstorm

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I didn't ever study the arm breaks, it was pretty much the direct strikes and chi sau along with forward movement etc. I have, however, studied various locks and breaks in kali and JuJutsu and many wrist manipulations and throws from Aikido etc. All are perfectly adapted to the Wing Chun I learned and vica versa.
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!


I didn't ever study the arm breaks, it was pretty much the direct strikes and chi sau along with forward movement etc. I have, however, studied various locks and breaks in kali and JuJutsu and many wrist manipulations and throws from Aikido etc. All are perfectly adapted to the Wing Chun I learned and vica versa.
 

Si-Je

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Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!

I think they may interelate due to the fact that there's only so many ways or one way a joint moves properly. I don't think the japanese styles have a monoploy on joint locks, chokes, or throws just because those arts may focus primarialy on such techniques. I've seen many other arts with joint breaks, and such in them that were executed differently than any japanese art.
The elbow and knee only move a couple of ways, it would be pretty easy to hyper extend or break these joints even on oneself.
I think each art does the same joint locks just with different purposes, ends, and entries to the joint breaks.
EX. Wing Chun an art focusing on striking. If we don't achieve the arm break or a joint lock we let it go and continue striking. When I took JJJ if we couldn't get the joint lock, we went for another variant, or another hold, or tried to make the joint lock work far longer than I would now as a WC practitioner.
Aikido seems to flow with the person's energy and focus's on "throwing" the person away from their space with joint flexes, breaks, or such. While in JJJ we'd focus on keeping them close to us as we broke the arm. And in WC (at least I'm trained this way) if we get the break cool, if not then we flow with striking, kicking, and such as if we never even tried to get the arm break in the first place.
All different entries, approaches, ends, means, and goals. But, very largely, the very same joint locks.
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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Since all style interelate one could cross train or not. Because training one style you may pick something up from another style since they all interelate.


Precisely why cross-training is so effective:wink2:


Also do forget Chin Na deals with Joint locks. An its a Chinese MA.



I think they may interelate due to the fact that there's only so many ways or one way a joint moves properly. I don't think the japanese styles have a monoploy on joint locks, chokes, or throws just because those arts may focus primarialy on such techniques. I've seen many other arts with joint breaks, and such in them that were executed differently than any japanese art.
The elbow and knee only move a couple of ways, it would be pretty easy to hyper extend or break these joints even on oneself.
I think each art does the same joint locks just with different purposes, ends, and entries to the joint breaks.
EX. Wing Chun an art focusing on striking. If we don't achieve the arm break or a joint lock we let it go and continue striking. When I took JJJ if we couldn't get the joint lock, we went for another variant, or another hold, or tried to make the joint lock work far longer than I would now as a WC practitioner.
Aikido seems to flow with the person's energy and focus's on "throwing" the person away from their space with joint flexes, breaks, or such. While in JJJ we'd focus on keeping them close to us as we broke the arm. And in WC (at least I'm trained this way) if we get the break cool, if not then we flow with striking, kicking, and such as if we never even tried to get the arm break in the first place.
All different entries, approaches, ends, means, and goals. But, very largely, the very same joint locks.
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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Well this topic is not as hot...as the other. But interesting that atleast a few of you have spoken up on this subject.


Qinna is joint locking and muscle and tendon tearing and found in just about every CMA style to varying degrees.
 

jks9199

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Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!
Not really...

The human body is a standard model, with various customizations. There ain't but so many ways to strike, hold, or throw someone. There are different underlying principles and emphasis on how to achieve this -- but, in the end, there is always going to be an amount of commonality.
 

Si-Je

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Yepperz, that's what I was saying.
Most all arts have joint locks, arm breaks, etc.
Well said.

I've noticed that alot of WC schools don't teach arm breaks and such though. Not even neck throws. I guess some teachers pick the techniques they like the best and only teach those. I don't know. But, their are alot of differences in different branches of WT/WC that make me wonder. It's such a young art to have so many variants.
 

mook jong man

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In our lineage the wrist breaks and arm breaks are purely defensive , to do them you have to have been grabbed . We don't go seizing peoples arms and wrists to break them , it is a result of us being grabbed in the first place .

It is simple , you grab me , I put my arm in a certain structure which places you in a bad position and if I so choose I can either break your arm or wrist or just put you in a lot of pain . Reminds me of a funny story , a long time ago when we were all at a club.

One of my friends and his wife had just graduated from the police academy , and as I found with several other friends who were also police they tend to think they are ten foot tall and bullet proof , and also seem to ridicule the martial arts .

So I said I bet I can bring you both to your knees with some simple Wing Chun wrist grab counters . This guy and his wife were both a lot bigger than me by the way , first off the bloke grabbed me on the wrist as hard as he could and I used the elbow over technique from Bil Gee to put pressure on his wrist joint and he dropped to the floor , his missus was still sceptical so I did the same thing to her .

There they were two big coppers on their knees in pain , after I let them up there reaction was very strange , they just did not want to believe that some small guy could do that to them , and the wife was actually quite angry .

If it was me I would of said how did you do that and then I would have said can you teach me to do that.
 

matsu

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funny how some people react mate. i would have been cooooool show me show me!!
and cant wait to get to stage that it becomes that natural. we have learned a few counters quite early on as sifu likes to make sure we know the self defense aspect of each basic technique so single wrist grabs double wrist grabs, i know how to but i jsut need to keeo working on them.
thansk for tat post mook!!
matsu
 

mook jong man

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funny how some people react mate. i would have been cooooool show me show me!!
and cant wait to get to stage that it becomes that natural. we have learned a few counters quite early on as sifu likes to make sure we know the self defense aspect of each basic technique so single wrist grabs double wrist grabs, i know how to but i jsut need to keeo working on them.
thansk for tat post mook!!
matsu

Yeah mate some people are just so damn ignorant , but I have had the same reaction before when I worked in a factory and showed some stuff to some blokes .

The guy I demonstrated on was a little bit scared with hands wizzing around his face and his limbs being jerked in different directions and another bloke was angry saying well I would just @#$%$ do this and smash your @#$%#% face in blah blah blah .

I think it is because we as martial artists are used to being taken down a peg or two by our seniors and we come face to face with our own failings everytime we train .

But non martial artists do not have this and they seem to be under delusions as to their fighting skill , actually the most boastful people I have ever heard in regards to their own fighting skill have been people that have not done one minute of training in their whole life.


Now in regards to those counter arm grabs a good way to sharpen your reflexes is to do them with your eyes closed . So for instance you have your eyes closed and the partner does the grab , as soon as you feel his grab open your eyes and do your technique . You must open your eyes when you feel the grab , this is purely for your partners safety , don't do the technique with your eyes closed .

You can't tell how much pain your partner is in or if the counter involves striking you might accidentally hit them . This method of training works totally on touch reflexes , because if your eyes are open you will have some clue as to which wrist he is going for and from the position of his hands you will also be able to determine what type of grab .

With the eyes closed until they make contact drill then you are forced to execute the right technique totally by reflex and without being forewarned . That being said what I have outlined above is a late phase defence , you should also work on making sure you are not grabbed in the first place by , pre-empting any attempted grabs with a parry and striking .

I know a crap load of arm grab counters but it is worth remembering that the simplest and most direct one is to punch them with your free hand , that is the first arm grab counter people learned at our school .
 

geezer

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There they were two big coppers on their knees in pain , after I let them up there reaction was very strange , they just did not want to believe that some small guy could do that to them , and the wife was actually quite angry .

If it was me I would of said how did you do that and then I would have said can you teach me to do that.

Man, that is sooo typical. I guess for most people it's not really about the technique at all. It's about dominance and status. When you effectively executed your technique, you contested their status. And, by being smaller, you just added insult to injury. Mook how dare you go around humiliating large people like that!

A fellow Chunner I knew many years ago had been a cop and gave hakko ryu aiki-jujutsu based seminars on subduing and controlling suspects to police groups. He told me that, even as an experienced cop himself, he typically had to start each seminar by picking the biggest, stubbornest guy in the group and giving him some real pain. He had to immediately establish "credibility" ...and dominant status, or he'd be dealing with the same thing you described. I think that dominance thing is something cops know a lot about, given their line of work. Interestingly, this guy was short too. He left our group and later went on to study with Ip Chun. If he didn't live about 1,500 miles away, I'd love to look him up, "pick his brains" and compare techniques.
 

mook jong man

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I don't like the word short thats discrimination against us short **** bastards we prefer the more politically correct term vertically challenged .

And so what if I have to buy my clothes from the childrens section in K -Mart and can get into the movies for half price.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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With Arm grabs. One simple thing is to Tan Sau and roll the palm up over and press down on the other hand.

Also Tan Sau to make them loose their grip while giving a hard gan sau to nerves in their wrist then front punch with the freed hand(Do in one motion).


Another thing I like is to huen sau and to pak da. Its great.

Or you could just grab under their wrist and tok sau. This makes them release instantly.

the weakess link on arm grabs is the thumb. So just go against the thumb with minimal force. An they will have to let you go.

I don't like the word short thats discrimination against us short **** bastards we prefer the more politically correct term vertically challenged .

And so what if I have to buy my clothes from the childrens section in K -Mart and can get into the movies for half price.
 

futsaowingchun

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Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?


Jip sau = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break


One of my Favorite Techniques is Tok Sau and Pak Sau combined. In my Lineage we also utilize Tok Sau and Fok Sau as arm break. Also we use the double Wu Sau guards as Arm break against a horizontal fist.

In the Fut Sao Wing Chun we have the same movement but it's application is not an arm break. Its functions is to control the wrist and elbow joints which at that point you might be able to break them but its about control first.
 
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