Are we really prepared to defend ourselves against gangs?
- Thread starter Carol
- Start date
kailat
Green Belt
I want to agree completly with JKS99.
Myself having prior military background as well work in Law Enforcement.
Here are some of what I see today.
Gangsters have been in the military even when I was in there. In fact I remember in my barracks there were a few guys from way back that took pictures throwing up gang signs. that was back in 90-91. Way back then I was a young pup of around 18-19yrs old, the only gang training I had was of a few of my aquaintences that I ran with that claimed they were this or that.. GD, VL etc.. but most of them were just wannabee's.. LOL they thought they were the real deal but honestly it was stupid.
Many years later I landed a job in corrections and I started training on Gangs. I had first hand experience w/ many of the OG's that landed in prison etc...I talked w/ many and yes several had military background believe it or not. But as someone else mentioned earlier in this forum post that these guys served in our US MILITARY and when they come back home, what else where they supposed to do? For those that could they got good jobs, for those that stayed in the streets and that crowd they came back to what they left. "GANG LIFE"...
Many youth join the Military to get out of the streets and to give them something positive to look for. But truth is many don't make that 20yr life out of the military because they cant take the discipline factor. So for many Military is temporary.
As I got into police work I've had numerous classes on and about Gang's had dealings with them, ran into and had to arrest several. Gangs are a fashion of our US heritage. Gangs go further back then the 50's and 60's of the Ethnical street gangs ie. GD's VL's BD's Crips, Bloods, Etc... we can take it further to the turn of the 20th century and further with Irish Gangs, Asian Gangs, that run the city streets of NYC, San Fransico. The Chicago era gangsters, mobsters were running streets of the midwest since the early 20's and before. So lets bet that these gangsters were probably ex military as well.
So as it was said, many of us EX Military, Current Police we train in the same tactics and we have many officers who are still currently serving in the armed forces over seas. So our training is constantly training and bettering for the best of our safety of public and service.
THE SWAT teams and other tactical weapons teams are paramilitary groups with great military expertise, made up of many EX Seals, Rangers, and the SPEC OPS of military.
Myself having prior military background as well work in Law Enforcement.
Here are some of what I see today.
Gangsters have been in the military even when I was in there. In fact I remember in my barracks there were a few guys from way back that took pictures throwing up gang signs. that was back in 90-91. Way back then I was a young pup of around 18-19yrs old, the only gang training I had was of a few of my aquaintences that I ran with that claimed they were this or that.. GD, VL etc.. but most of them were just wannabee's.. LOL they thought they were the real deal but honestly it was stupid.
Many years later I landed a job in corrections and I started training on Gangs. I had first hand experience w/ many of the OG's that landed in prison etc...I talked w/ many and yes several had military background believe it or not. But as someone else mentioned earlier in this forum post that these guys served in our US MILITARY and when they come back home, what else where they supposed to do? For those that could they got good jobs, for those that stayed in the streets and that crowd they came back to what they left. "GANG LIFE"...
Many youth join the Military to get out of the streets and to give them something positive to look for. But truth is many don't make that 20yr life out of the military because they cant take the discipline factor. So for many Military is temporary.
As I got into police work I've had numerous classes on and about Gang's had dealings with them, ran into and had to arrest several. Gangs are a fashion of our US heritage. Gangs go further back then the 50's and 60's of the Ethnical street gangs ie. GD's VL's BD's Crips, Bloods, Etc... we can take it further to the turn of the 20th century and further with Irish Gangs, Asian Gangs, that run the city streets of NYC, San Fransico. The Chicago era gangsters, mobsters were running streets of the midwest since the early 20's and before. So lets bet that these gangsters were probably ex military as well.
So as it was said, many of us EX Military, Current Police we train in the same tactics and we have many officers who are still currently serving in the armed forces over seas. So our training is constantly training and bettering for the best of our safety of public and service.
THE SWAT teams and other tactical weapons teams are paramilitary groups with great military expertise, made up of many EX Seals, Rangers, and the SPEC OPS of military.
Archangel M
Senior Master
I dont think this is anything new, or really anything to set your hair on fire over.
I do think the military should be screening them out, by all means, keep them out. However some basic trained teenager isnt some killing machine. Id be interested to see the MOS most of these bangers get into and how much advanced training most of them get (Ranger School, SpecOps and so on).
Im not going to get into my awsome Rambo training and notches on my gunbelt, but believe me, most military training isnt the "lightening bolt of Zeus" the movies lead you to believe. Military tactics at the soldier level isnt nuclear physics and can be found on the net with ease. The willingness to pull the trigger? Id say some of these bangers are probably bringing more of that INTO the service than they are taking OUT of it.
I do think the military should be screening them out, by all means, keep them out. However some basic trained teenager isnt some killing machine. Id be interested to see the MOS most of these bangers get into and how much advanced training most of them get (Ranger School, SpecOps and so on).
Im not going to get into my awsome Rambo training and notches on my gunbelt, but believe me, most military training isnt the "lightening bolt of Zeus" the movies lead you to believe. Military tactics at the soldier level isnt nuclear physics and can be found on the net with ease. The willingness to pull the trigger? Id say some of these bangers are probably bringing more of that INTO the service than they are taking OUT of it.
Archangel M
Senior Master
You will become a supreme expert in floor polishing, painting rocks, picking up trash and cleaning things though LOL!
Aint that the truth: Some days 11bravo = Janitor.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Actually I was referring to the LEOs that had been in the military or are in the military like my neighbor that has been a 1 tour vet in Iraq already. But there are others.
But I also have a close friend that is an LEO that has never been in the military but is one of the best martial artists I have ever seen and a graduate of SWAT and Sniper school; I would have faith in him as well. But then I know a lot of LEOs I would trust if need be.
From my training -- many bangers are going into the infantry, MPs, or a similar line MOS. Others go into support positions, like mechanics. In short -- they're going into the normal MOSes based on their abilities and the needs of the services. Not surprisingly, few of them have the combination of characteristics to move into any special warfare or elite unit. (After all, that's why they're called elite units!) That does leave some that do -- just like some bangers go to college, but they're the minority. And, I suspect, you'll find that more of that subset are the ones who are using the military to get out of the gangster life. (Yes, there are people who manage to use the military to turn themselves around; I'm not at all saying that none do.)
But it's not the high-speed stuff that's the concern. It's not even the training in and of itself; as you said, there's plenty of places to learn much of that outside of the military. The real concern, and what's kind of new about it, is that these guys are going into Iraq or Afghanistan or some of the other places we've got troops in harm's way, and they're being blooded in fire. They're making that trained to experienced transition; they're using the tactics under pressure -- and bringing that experience back to the streets of the USA.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
I'd say that's probably right....I see a disproportionate number going toward support units, because that's what their level of education and abilities likely equal. I seriously doubt the average gang member is going to go Special Forces, for one lack of motivation, but even more, it requires a much higher security clearance than their backgrounds are going to support.
But yes, you are right....combat experience matters. Of course, if they're gang members of south central Los Angeles, Detroit or Washington DC many of those neighborhoods aren't that removed as a combat zone from Iraq.
Guardian
Black Belt
Very true, look at the bike gangs for the most part, they have sophisticated themselves, gone into businesses, sure some still ride and fight, but for the most part, most do business whether illegal or legal, it's about the money which equals power, gangs are no different, their evolving as with anything else as not to die off (in a sense).
The 1%er clubs all still ride & fight. Some have managed to create a parallel, semi-legitimate front, like the Hells Angels -- but their heart and core is still the outlaw, 1%er mindset. Street gangs actually were ahead of them; look at the Growth & Development movement of the Gangster's Disciples.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
All true....American gangs have attempted to develop mainstream access as semi-legitimate business interests.
Fortunately for us we do not have a criminal underworld as sophisticated as, say, the Russian mafia, which permeates every layer of society in Russia, from street level crime, right up to multi-billion dollar buisness ventures and even the Russian government itself. It is estimated that Russia has over 100,000 committed mobsters operating presently at various layers of it's underworld.
And when you consider that quite a few Russian mafiosos come from the ranks of the former KGB and other state apparatuses, as well as the ranks of the Russian military, including the Spetsnaz....well, that's kind of scary. As I understand it, if you do business in Russia....you had better count on paying the Russian mob a royalty. Assassinations of business men, including Canadian and American millionaires, isn't uncommon. Ken Rowe could attest to that....as could Paul Tatum, if he were still alive. http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/PaulTatum.html
Which actually have it pretty good in America.
Sorry to interrupt the current convo. I haven't read it all admittedly. (Too much school work to do) So, my answer to the question is honestly no. Fighting is hard enough one to one, let alone 2 or 10 to one. Plus all the other factors....nah, no way to prepare for it really. If it goes down, try and get the jump before they position themselves and just let it fly. Usually, not all memebers of the group will be "about it". There will be a few "definites", who, if succesful will get the others into being definites too. Dispatching the definites or definites might be enough to cause the phenomanom to be reversed, where the panic and hesitation will shoot through the group. Fear spreads through groups faster than with individuals. That might be your only edge.
searcher
Senior Master
Going back to the OP question, I would love to be able to say yes, but I am not sure. I havemy CCH and have, of late, been relying heavily on my gun skills. Don't get me wrong, I still train my empty hand like a wild man, but man there is nothing like a firearm to level the field.
tellner
Senior Master
In every generation there's a new sort of gangster who is completely unlike the old sort. He's a vicious, crazy thrill-killing monster who represents the greatest threat yet to law enforcement. Just going back a century or so we go from the Irish to the Chinese, then Jews and the Italians. There were the Blacks, the Chicanos, the Jamaicans, the Southeast Asians, the Skinheads, the Russians, then the Guatemalans, Salvadorans and Mexicans (as opposed to Chicanos). I lose track. Whose day is it in the barrel now?
Once it was Murder Incorporated. Then La Cosa Nostra. The Latin Kings. The Crips. M-13. The dancers change. The tune stays the same.
The thing that characterizes most of these is their immigrant status. It's a classic progression. The first immigrants generally take **** jobs for lousy wages or become criminals. The crime and scut work raise enough capital to open stores and start other small businesses. Others join the police or the Army to get a stake and become American. Their kids go to college and join Rotary. The next generation goes to better colleges and moves to the higher-priced neighborhoods.
A well-off first generation immigrant might well have gotten that way selling drugs, running a protection racket or owning a brothel. His grandkids only speak the old family language slowly with a bad accent. Their parents are happy, and their grandparents are thrilled. Grandpa ran with the gangs or was a Made Man because that was where the biggest opportunities were to make a stake. That's where the best and brightest tended to go. But when you can make more as an electrician let alone a lawyer or doctor or owning a chain of stores being a mobster loses a lot of its appeal.
Remember that line from The Godfather? "Be a lawyer. You can steal more with a briefcase than I ever could with a machine gun."
In other words, historically it's about making a stake.
In 1911 the debate around the Sullivan Act included phrases like "Jews, Italians and other criminals". Now it's about the police being outgunned by "gang bangers" (read "Black") and Salvadorans.
In a generation the Russian Mafia will be solid citizens. In two everyone will have forgotten about M-13.
Odds are that Blacks will still be carrying a heavy load, but that has more to do with the weird twists and turns of early American history starting with the Great Compromise and "three fifths of a man for purposes of apportionment". The Romany will probably not have assimilated. They resist it unless you take a firm but enlightened approach like Spain has in recent years.
The Native tribes are beginning to make a stake with vice in the approved fashion, but this time it's out-in-the-open casinos and legal whiskey. It's just as well. They've been screwed like a two dollar hooker by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It's about time they got something back.
So no. It's not surprising that gangs evolve and eventually wink out of existence. And it's completely natural that many of them have community functions. A lot of their purpose was always mutual aid and making illegal money in a world where it was damned hard to make significant quantities legally as a new immigrant. In my father's days in Chicago the Syndicate had a hand in every pie. But it provided money, jobs and sometimes rough justice of a sort for people who could expect little of any of those from the larger society.
Groups like the Hell's Angels and Sons of Silence are a little different. They are the self-described 1%ers for whom there isn't a place in normal society. They are outcasts by temperament. Every group has people like that. But even there you see signs of organized if not exactly legitimate business. The Angels own and run a huge chunk of the meth trade, and they do it very efficiently from all reports. Sonny Barger may be an outlaw. But he's not a twenty year old outlaw any more.
Once it was Murder Incorporated. Then La Cosa Nostra. The Latin Kings. The Crips. M-13. The dancers change. The tune stays the same.
The thing that characterizes most of these is their immigrant status. It's a classic progression. The first immigrants generally take **** jobs for lousy wages or become criminals. The crime and scut work raise enough capital to open stores and start other small businesses. Others join the police or the Army to get a stake and become American. Their kids go to college and join Rotary. The next generation goes to better colleges and moves to the higher-priced neighborhoods.
A well-off first generation immigrant might well have gotten that way selling drugs, running a protection racket or owning a brothel. His grandkids only speak the old family language slowly with a bad accent. Their parents are happy, and their grandparents are thrilled. Grandpa ran with the gangs or was a Made Man because that was where the biggest opportunities were to make a stake. That's where the best and brightest tended to go. But when you can make more as an electrician let alone a lawyer or doctor or owning a chain of stores being a mobster loses a lot of its appeal.
Remember that line from The Godfather? "Be a lawyer. You can steal more with a briefcase than I ever could with a machine gun."
In other words, historically it's about making a stake.
In 1911 the debate around the Sullivan Act included phrases like "Jews, Italians and other criminals". Now it's about the police being outgunned by "gang bangers" (read "Black") and Salvadorans.
In a generation the Russian Mafia will be solid citizens. In two everyone will have forgotten about M-13.
Odds are that Blacks will still be carrying a heavy load, but that has more to do with the weird twists and turns of early American history starting with the Great Compromise and "three fifths of a man for purposes of apportionment". The Romany will probably not have assimilated. They resist it unless you take a firm but enlightened approach like Spain has in recent years.
The Native tribes are beginning to make a stake with vice in the approved fashion, but this time it's out-in-the-open casinos and legal whiskey. It's just as well. They've been screwed like a two dollar hooker by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It's about time they got something back.
So no. It's not surprising that gangs evolve and eventually wink out of existence. And it's completely natural that many of them have community functions. A lot of their purpose was always mutual aid and making illegal money in a world where it was damned hard to make significant quantities legally as a new immigrant. In my father's days in Chicago the Syndicate had a hand in every pie. But it provided money, jobs and sometimes rough justice of a sort for people who could expect little of any of those from the larger society.
Groups like the Hell's Angels and Sons of Silence are a little different. They are the self-described 1%ers for whom there isn't a place in normal society. They are outcasts by temperament. Every group has people like that. But even there you see signs of organized if not exactly legitimate business. The Angels own and run a huge chunk of the meth trade, and they do it very efficiently from all reports. Sonny Barger may be an outlaw. But he's not a twenty year old outlaw any more.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
me too
What goes around comes around, that's for sure.
Can anyone here who is familiar with military vehicles confirm to me if this is US property pictured here:
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Of course not! It's claimed by East Side LA; 323 area code in case there's still any doubt.me too
What goes around comes around, that's for sure.
Can anyone here who is familiar with military vehicles confirm to me if this is US property pictured here:
(Don't know if MENES is the actual gang or the actual fool who did the work). And then off to the right, there's the roll call of the whole clique so we'll all know whom to credit with this act of bravery. :angry:
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Of course not! It's claimed by East Side LA; 323 area code in case there's still any doubt.
Now, I'm very naive about military culture, and gang culture. I don't know anything about it. But it seems to me to be pretty far out that anyone could spray paint up some kind of military vehicle in this way without getting in trouble -- even in the field. Lets hope that whoever did this was addressed for it.
matt.m
Senior Master
Yes and absolutely. I am not trying to be arrogant but I have done hand to hand with everything from fist, pistols, squad automatic weapon, K-Bar, Shaini, Cane.....whatever.
So after combat on 4 continents and 1 island I would have to say yes. In fact, I enjoy training in multiple attacker flow drills most of all. Since Haiti, that has been my training of choice....multiple attackers. However, I was a Sgt. in the U.S.M.C. so yeah, I could defend myself. I am most a Yudo, Hapkidoist. I am practicing Tae Kwon Do. I have cane, Knife defense, so yes I feel very comfortable.
It is all about confidence and the acceptance to take and give pain right back.
So after combat on 4 continents and 1 island I would have to say yes. In fact, I enjoy training in multiple attacker flow drills most of all. Since Haiti, that has been my training of choice....multiple attackers. However, I was a Sgt. in the U.S.M.C. so yeah, I could defend myself. I am most a Yudo, Hapkidoist. I am practicing Tae Kwon Do. I have cane, Knife defense, so yes I feel very comfortable.
It is all about confidence and the acceptance to take and give pain right back.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Absolutely! A mass-attack by several gang members is a LETHAL FORCE situation! Fighting Man to Man (to man to man to man to man...etc.) isn't advantageous to someone who likes their body intact! God gave man the opposable thumb and the ability to use tools for a reason!
kidswarrior
Senior Master
While I'm not one to turn to the gun much (anymore), the bolded part above would bring out the beast, for sure.
And matt.m is one of the all-time good guys, so... Good lookin out sgtmac.
