Appreciating Good Kata/Hyung regardless of Style

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.

JT,
Most practitioners see this as a double block just as you have…

This technique is widely used in many of the hyung in TSD.

1) Get a partner.

2) Challenge each other in a front stance with your right legs in the rear.

3) Have your partner execute a front kick to your chest. Using what you see as the preparation for the double block, (with your left hand) deflect the incoming kick to upward and to your right side above the outside of your bicep.

4) Capture his leg at the ankle with the inside of your right arm, trapping the ankle between your bicep and radial bone.

5) Simultaneously, use the left hand to strike (Hadan Mahk Kee) into his inner thigh or his hip socket.

Be careful as you execute this application to not damage his knee. If you perform this application with full speed and expansion of your arms and chest, you can cause his knee to bend sideways; damaging the medial region of the knee joint.

If you execute this application and slow down at the end of the movement, at the point that your left hand makes contact with his inner thigh or hip socket, drop into a deeper stance and this becomes a safe and easy take-down technique and makes for a good demonstration.


Let us know how it works for you…

 

[Lynne]

Here is some interesting videos:

SBD Pyong Ahn Chodan

Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan)

Who would you score higher and why?

I would score the SBD (orange belt) higher. He had explosiveness in his moves. His stances appeared to be rooted well.

The second person (black belt) really flowed between movements but didn't have explosiveness and seemed blase.

I'm just learning the five elements and am a newbie though...

 

[Victor Smith]

Master Jay,

In that we’re talking about a style kata variations I’d like to offer a few comments.

Regarding the video

Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan) Where you state ” The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.”

This is not a Shotokan style kata. In Shotokan Pinan Shodan would be Heian NiDan. I’m pretty sure what is being shown is a variant of Shito Ryu
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc&mode=related&search=

I don’t disagree that the person has a way to go, just that the Shito Ryu stances are not as deep as their Shotokan neighbors would do.

I also find your thoughts on Hangetsu Dachi interesting. The original Seisan dachi from the Okinawan (Shorin) origins do not resemble what the JKA turned the stances into. While there are many Seisan variants, even the rough grouping Shorin, Goju, Uehci, does not begin to cover the many variations time brought to the form’s shape.

The Hangetsu Dachi, or stance, you’re referring to is a Japanese Shotokan development (and they have their own factions between Shotokan vs. JKA) is a very strong stance, but it seems counter to the origin use of the stance from an Okinawan perspective.

For one example, let me offer a Seisan by one of my new sho-dans. It’s not perfect, but as all kata a work in progress, but it does show one of Okinawa’s stance variations.

pleasantly,

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Master Jay,

In that we’re talking about a style kata variations I’d like to offer a few comments.

Regarding the video

Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan) Where you state ” The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.”

This is not a Shotokan style kata. In Shotokan Pinan Shodan would be Heian NiDan. I’m pretty sure what is being shown is a variant of Shito Ryu
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc&mode=related&search=

I don’t disagree that the person has a way to go, just that the Shito Ryu stances are not as deep as their Shotokan neighbors would do.

I also find your thoughts on Hangetsu Dachi interesting. The original Seisan dachi from the Okinawan (Shorin) origins do not resemble what the JKA turned the stances into. While there are many Seisan variants, even the rough grouping Shorin, Goju, Uehci, does not begin to cover the many variations time brought to the form’s shape.

The Hangetsu Dachi, or stance, you’re referring to is a Japanese Shotokan development (and they have their own factions between Shotokan vs. JKA) is a very strong stance, but it seems counter to the origin use of the stance from an Okinawan perspective.

For one example, let me offer a Seisan by one of my new sho-dans. It’s not perfect, but as all kata a work in progress, but it does show one of Okinawa’s stance variations.

pleasantly,

Sensei Smith,
It is great to have an Isshinryu practitioner on the board. I began in Isshinryu in 1972 under Sensei Bill Pogue here in Detroit and have, over the years, trained with G.M. Willie Adams, Sensei’s Burt Ross, Dan Bartley, Eugene Woods, George Reynolds, as well as Sensei Norbert Donnelly. I love the Isshinryu system…

In the book: Shotokan’s Secret, written by Sensei Bruce D. Clayton, Clayton surmises that; in watching an Isshinryu practitioner perform the kata’s of the system it is like seeing the closest variant of the kata to what the original must have looked like, as Shimabuku, Tatsuo learned these kata from Kyan, Chutoku. Kyan was noted for rebelling against the other Sensei of the time who chose to move toward linear movement with the longer and deeper stances. I think that Clayton did a great job in writing this book.

What you have stated here regarding the original variants of Seisan and all of the kata in question is correct. It was Itosu and others of his time that started the reconstruction of the structures in the process of passing them along to the next generation. As Funakoshi progressed in teaching his system, his students continued to modify the stances and structures to become deeper and more powerful as we see them today.

What is your Isshinryu history?

In your bio it states that you study Wu Style Tai Chi as well. We have a Sifu in Detroit named Steve Britt. He was, for many years, Eddy Wu’s senior student. Do you know him?

Contact me if you have a chance. My cell is: 313-377-4720.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I would score the SBD (orange belt) higher. He had explosiveness in his moves. His stances appeared to be rooted well.

The second person (black belt) really flowed between movements but didn't have explosiveness and seemed blase.

I'm just learning the five elements and am a newbie though...

Lynne,
Watch the SBD guy again…

Pay close attention to the placement of his front leg knee to the foot. His stances are too high and he never completes the stance to be rooted. His over exaggeration in his preparations off-balance him on every technique. His elbows roll to far over on every punch causing his shoulder to pop out of socket and his connections are completely lost.

But, as I stated, he is an 8th guep. Damon Kenyon is an excellent instructor. If he is a student of Damon’s, he will work all of these things out…

 

[Victor Smith]

Master Jay,

My Isshinryu background came from Tom Lewis (then Salisbury Md now on a ranch in Wyoming) and I’ve been doing it for 35 years. BTW I studied TSD with Frank Trajonawizc in Scranton for several years, Chinese arts with Ernest Rothrock for 30 years and Shotokan and Indonesian studies with Tristan Sutrisno for over 10 years.

My Isshinryu history was first training under Mr. Lewis (a former Marine) and then under one of his students Charles Murray (USAF) who also trained under Shimabuku Tatsuo.Then I’ve been teaching youth for free for 30 years and a small group of adults for 22 years. My model was pre 1900 intimate instruction which we follow to this day. I also trained a bit with the late Sherman Harrill and picked up roughly 800 applications from the 8 Isshiryu kata, a small piece of his studies.

I’ve studied Yang Tai Chi from Ernest Rothrock for about 30 years, and as he got really into eagle claw (which he teaches today) He shared his Wu Tai Chi studies with me. I’m primarily a Yang stylist. BTW his ex-wife Cynthia Rothrock was a TSD student of Frank Trojanowicz too. Small world.

I find Shotokan’s Secret, written by Sensei Bruce D. Clayton, more a case of special pleading (supporting Itosu and Shotokan’s development versus Kyan’s) simply because he should have focused on the systems that remained closer to Kyan’s teachings. Isshinryu’s founder Shimabuku Tatsuo definitely moved the paradigm with Isshinryu. He should have looked at Seibukan, Shorinjiryu and even Matsubayshi ryu as other Kyan derivative systems, for I feel they are closer to Kyan’s original intent. Which is not to slight his contributions in Isshirnyu, but the differences IMO mean that he could have chosen better to try and make a case.

I’m afraid I don’t agree one system’s approach is better than anothers. I’ve trained with too many good people that find very different ways to make their study work, the initial secret, decades of sweat equity.

Some Seisan versions to look at are attached below. All of these version follow the Okinawan standard (IMO) is that the paradigm changes each generation/instructor moves on. All of them are effective, abet differently.

Naha-te tradition (descended from Hiagonna K.)

Toon Ryu Seisan – not available on the net
Morio Higaonna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs&mode=related&search=
Ryuei-ryu Seisan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTtRyNjA2eY&mode=related&search=
Seisan Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVbKOI1gQo&mode=related&search=

Uechi tradition – imported to Okinawan about 1948
Kanei Uechi - Seisan Kata

Several Shorin exmaples
Shobayashi Shorin-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUznJJnMenE&mode=related&search=
Seibukan Seisan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFSnV7s_5i0&mode=related&search=
And humbly I’ll include my version of Isshinryu again
Isshinryu Seisan – Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Nakazato Joen's Shorinji-ryu kata has Seisan as the 2nd or 3rd kata
http://shao.sakura.ne.jp/kata.htm

Itosu’s descendents –

Old Hangetsu shotokan

JKA Kata Hangetsu

Hirokazu Kanazawa – Hangetsu

BTW Egami’s turn from the JKA with the Shotokai went much further into stances and movement dynamics than the JKA uses.

Hangetsu (Shotokai)

Hangetsu

Maître Shigeru Egami (Shotokai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad6bdqsFG5M&mode=related&search=

BTW my own analysis is that all of the Okinawan Seisan kata likely came from one kata. While Shorin, Goju and Uechi are vastly different, they share a core embusen, pattern, of a forward section, a turn, a forward pattern to the reversse and section and an ‘+’ pattern. The rest may well be variation and embellishments on the original theme.

Of course it’s just my analysis, which does not constitute proof, but I feel there is a logical case for it.

Pleasantly,

 

[JWLuiza]

John,
This is an unfair match up…
The Shotokan practitioner is a shodan, the SBD guy is an 8th gyup. The difference in quality clearly reflects the difference in experience.

The SBD guy has a great deal of extra movement in his execution that needs to be smoothed out over time, and most likely will be if he is a student of Damon Kenyon’s.

The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.

Just my opinion…

GREAT discussions here. However, as a tournament matter, I would vote the orange belt higher. AS an orange belt his level is above average, while the black belt had obvious deficits in her technique and was unaware of the impact of her body mechanics. But yes, apples and oranges.

My goal was for people to start looking at the similarities between styles and that good karate/TSD was good karate/TSD no matter what...

 

[MBuzzy]

There are huge differences in style here, but I would like to see a comparison of a "good" TSD practitioner and a "good" Shotokan practitioner performing the same style. I'd be willing to bet that they would be very close in terms of performance. Regardless of style, I would assume that both TSD or Karate stylists could agree that each other's performance was good.

 

[Lynne]

Lynne,
Watch the SBD guy again…

Pay close attention to the placement of his front leg knee to the foot. His stances are too high and he never completes the stance to be rooted. His over exaggeration in his preparations off-balance him on every technique. His elbows roll to far over on every punch causing his shoulder to pop out of socket and his connections are completely lost.

But, as I stated, he is an 8th guep. Damon Kenyon is an excellent instructor. If he is a student of Damon’s, he will work all of these things out…

Oh, ok. I noticed, too, that his back leg is bent in the front stances. That's a bad habit I just started falling into myself. I noticed he didn't settle into his stances. Maybe nervous and rushed.

I still have that problem with my shoulders not being square. Tricky to explode and not shift the shoulder forward. I also have the problem with my front stances being too high.

I wonder if I step deeper if my shoulders would be more square?

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Lynne,

I think you'll find its not the depth of the stance but more how you use your abdominal area (some refer to as using your hips) to keep your shoulders square. As you explode forward if you have the correct abdominal rotation it will keep your shoulders as you wish.

Oft-times for newer students they focus on a piece of the movement. This is natural, but in time you understand more of the bodies mechanisms involved in natural movement and can start to use them effectively.

I'm sure your instructors advice in time will show you how to resolve this in your movement.

Good luck,

 

[Lynne]

Hi Lynne,

I think you'll find its not the depth of the stance but more how you use your abdominal area (some refer to as using your hips) to keep your shoulders square. As you explode forward if you have the correct abdominal rotation it will keep your shoulders as you wish.

Oft-times for newer students they focus on a piece of the movement. This is natural, but in time you understand more of the bodies mechanisms involved in natural movement and can start to use them effectively.

I'm sure your instructors advice in time will show you how to resolve this in your movement.

Good luck,

Thank you, Victor. I'll focus on using my core today, see if that helps!

 

[JWLuiza]

I've posted a video of me doing a form in the members in motion section.