Anyone look into the inside of folding knives on the construction?

[Alan0354]

The Flipper style have issues as well.
Balisong requires a couple of wrist movements.
The others usually require a loose screw for where it gets tightened.

I have used both, just does not fit my needs.

The secondary and beyond motions take too long in a situation when a knife is required for self defense.
And practice in a car the pull is not easy, yet not any harder than any other blade to clear and deploy .

I also have an Emerson Trainer which not only allows for day to day practice, it allows you to roll with a knife and see if you can clear and deploy it.


PS: I am not a fan of the FOX Karambit - just felt cheap and poorly made and as with 99.99% of all Karambits my hand aligns with the blade and my finger does not fit into the finger hole.


As to the Wave requiring pants to hook, yes true for a single motion deploy and open.
If pulled straight up it remains closed and can be handed to anyone asking you to clear your pockets.
It also can be opened with the thumb, just not the HUGE thumb hole that some like spider co use.

The flipper I like is simple index finger tap like in the picture:

I cannot do well with the thumb hole type. This is a must for me to choose the knife. Too bad that rules out Cold Steel which I heard a lot of good things about. You can deploy very fast with the index finger tap, not like the balisong that needs to flip back and fore...........Also it's illegal in Kalifornia. I don't like FOX Karambit either, the look just doesn't appeal to me at all.

These are the few I am looking at:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QBVJRY1/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A2X6NDN9Z5CRN7&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QQF1TK6/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_3?smid=AVK2FQXQF9PPN&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08G9X4F45/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=ASLDWIKOQUN8O&psc=1


They are all Steel Will with no ball bearings. Do you know of other brands other than Cold Steel that doesn't use ball bearings in price range of $40 to $80? I don't want to get really cheap ones, they are the ones with no ball bearings, but then the material is too cheap. too bad Cold Steel are like the old Gerber that don't use index finger tap. I just not comfortable to use the thumb tap or the hole to open the knife.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I do not at this time know who else uses the ball bearing.

 

[Alan0354]

Yeh, too bad, very few middle of the road knives don't use ball bearings, I understand the advantage of ball bearings. I join two other knife forums, no answer either except Hinderer that is so expensive and you can choose to have no ball bearings. It's in range of $400!!!

Too bad Cold Steel don't have the finger tap flipper.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Add Cold Steel to the list. They've got a reputation for solid work, and they're cheap, compared to the good stuff.

From The one knife I own to the reviews I've seen, Cold Steel does a good job.

 

[frank raud]

In my limited experience with using a folding knife as a prybar, the knife breaks at the tip or the center of the blade. The knife is no doubt thinner at the pivot point, but I think you would have to have pretty sloppy tolerances for blade play to break the pivot point. As I understand physics, a pivot point stuffed with washers( ball bearing or otherwise) supported and reinforced by the knife frame and scales and a pivot screw will not be the weak point in the chain. Otherwise, tip breakage or even the blade breaking in half would not be the usual result of abusing the blade by applying lateral force. But hey, none of us apparently know what we are talking about.

 

[drop bear]

thanks, I just bought the second one of this, I cannot refuse when they are on sale for $24.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G2FNM5C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is the picture of my 3 favorite knives from big to small:
View attachment 29182

They ALL fit everything I want, the part of the blade of my concern are at least 0.053", side frame of 0.06", wide blade front so it's not easy to break. Long index finger guard show as the RED arch. All heavy duty knives. On the big and the cheapest one at the top of the picture, everything is thick, I don't care how good the quality of the metal of the expensive, nothing beats the sheer thickness of the metal. The blade is 0.14" thick!!! hell, all 3 have 0.14" thick blade.

What I am looking for are not uncommon, just have to know which one. I bought the second big one(on top of the picture) that is 3.25" because that's the compromise between size and effectiveness.......AND price I cannot refuse. It's still a strong D2 steel blade with a lot of good reviews. One doesn't have to pay an arm or a leg for a good one.

Now, I can look for a 3.5" blade. That should be easier to find.

I read somewhere the cheaper steels might be stronger as well. Just hard to sharpen.

 

[drop bear]

Yeh, too bad, very few middle of the road knives don't use ball bearings, I understand the advantage of ball bearings. I join two other knife forums, no answer either except Hinderer that is so expensive and you can choose to have no ball bearings. It's in range of $400!!!

Too bad Cold Steel don't have the finger tap flipper.

Kershaw?

Inside Kershaw Opening Systems - Pocketknives | Kershaw Knives

SpeedSafe, automatic, KVT. Take a look inside Kershaw pocketknife opening systems and to learn how each one makes your Kershaw easy to open and put to work.

kershaw.kaiusa.com

 

[Alan0354]

In my limited experience with using a folding knife as a prybar, the knife breaks at the tip or the center of the blade. The knife is no doubt thinner at the pivot point, but I think you would have to have pretty sloppy tolerances for blade play to break the pivot point. As I understand physics, a pivot point stuffed with washers( ball bearing or otherwise) supported and reinforced by the knife frame and scales and a pivot screw will not be the weak point in the chain. Otherwise, tip breakage or even the blade breaking in half would not be the usual result of abusing the blade by applying lateral force. But hey, none of us apparently know what we are talking about.

Yes, the tip of the knife is definitely the most critical where they usually break when prying. I just logically look at the whole knife and spot any potential weak point.

I buy knives with like tanto tips or blades with wide tip so they are stronger at the tip. I can control what I buy. The tricky part of the pivot point is you cannot see it until you open it. You cannot count on whether the knife is claimed to be tactical, survival or whatever, they might look sturdy outside:

But if you open it up, look at how thin that part is:

This is true for more expensive and known to be tough brands like OFF-GRID:

But look at the internal:

The blade pointed by GREEN arrow is good, BUT, look at the steel lining. They milled out the lining for the ball bearings and is paper thin on both linings, it's only 0.03" thick.

That's why I ask anyone open the knife, that's the only way to know.


this is the latest one I bought, no ball bearings:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QBVJRY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I open it, everything looks good.

 

[Alan0354]

I read somewhere the cheaper steels might be stronger as well. Just hard to sharpen.

Yes, that's why I don't buy expensive ones, max $70 so far.

 

[drop bear]

Has anyone suggested a fixed blade yet? Which would solve the problem.

 

[Alan0354]

Has anyone suggested a fixed blade yet? Which would solve the problem.

It's illegal unless you open carry in Kalif. It's too big and eye catching carrying open.

 

[frank raud]

Yes, the tip of the knife is definitely the most critical where they usually break when prying. I just logically look at the whole knife and spot any potential weak point.

I buy knives with like tanto tips or blades with wide tip so they are stronger at the tip. I can control what I buy. The tricky part of the pivot point is you cannot see it until you open it. You cannot count on whether the knife is claimed to be tactical, survival or whatever, they might look sturdy outside:

Have you ever had a blade break at the pivot point? Do you know anyone who has had their knife break at the pivot point?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, the tip of the knife is definitely the most critical where they usually break when prying. I just logically look at the whole knife and spot any potential weak point.

I buy knives with like tanto tips or blades with wide tip so they are stronger at the tip. I can control what I buy. The tricky part of the pivot point is you cannot see it until you open it. You cannot count on whether the knife is claimed to be tactical, survival or whatever, they might look sturdy outside:
View attachment 29232
But if you open it up, look at how thin that part is:
View attachment 29233

This is true for more expensive and known to be tough brands like OFF-GRID:
View attachment 29234

But look at the internal:
View attachment 29235

The blade pointed by GREEN arrow is good, BUT, look at the steel lining. They milled out the lining for the ball bearings and is paper thin on both linings, it's only 0.03" thick.

That's why I ask anyone open the knife, that's the only way to know.


this is the latest one I bought, no ball bearings:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QBVJRY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I open it, everything looks good.

It's worth noting that you're measuring the thinnest point, where that thinnest point isn't unaccompanied by thicker material. That's like judging a blade's potential strength by how thin the sharp edge is.

Then you have to factor in that the point you're looking at is supported to varying extents in every folding knife. The closer the tolerances (usually more expensive), the more supported that area of the knife will be.

So using this one measurement tells you almost nothing about the strength of that part of the knife, much whether that is the weak point you think it is. Physics, in this case, is far more complex than you're making it out to be.

 

[Alan0354]

It's worth noting that you're measuring the thinnest point, where that thinnest point isn't unaccompanied by thicker material. That's like judging a blade's potential strength by how thin the sharp edge is.

Then you have to factor in that the point you're looking at is supported to varying extents in every folding knife. The closer the tolerances (usually more expensive), the more supported that area of the knife will be.

So using this one measurement tells you almost nothing about the strength of that part of the knife, much whether that is the weak point you think it is. Physics, in this case, is far more complex than you're making it out to be.

True, but when it gets down to 0.03", that's thin. Remember, blade material is optimized for edge retention, meaning they sacrifice toughness. In another word, it tends to be brittle. When getting down to this thin, cracking is more a concern to me upon applying force. Any knife that is $70 or under are made in China. I hate to say being a Chinese, THEY ARE SLOPPY!!! You really trust the consistency of their quenching of the blades? Error in this can make the blade brittle if it is thin.

Also, what you said holds more truth if they use a flat washer where the pressure is applied evenly over the large surface. But with ball bearing, all the pressure are on the tip of those little balls, meaning most of the thin part is NOT being supported.

True, I search on youtube on torturing of knives using it to pry. I have NOT seen it break at the pivot point. BUT, upon checking each knife they use, majority of them don't have ball bearings.

Also, NOT all the ones with ball bearings are thin at that point, I have 3 knives already that are at least 0.05" to 0.07". Anything above 0.05", I totally agree the rest of the structure at the pivot point will strengthen it up and won't be the weakest link of the knife.


To follow up with the sloppy workmanship from China, My favorite knife is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09G2FNM5C?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

I bought 5 and return 1, I measure that part. one is 0.06", two are 0.05", one is 0.04" which I return. I just got another one today that measure 0.047". I am still thinking whether I want to return it or not!!! How can they be so sloppy in making them? The space is very critical it that area. Too thick, the knife binds if you tighten the screw. Too thin, you have slop.

Pivot screw of 80% of knives I bought ( over 10 of different brands) CANNOT be tighten or else the blade will bind or even stuck. they use Lock Tight stuff to glue the screw without tightening it. That's how sloppy they are. Most of them I can thin out the non-metal( they call G10 material) outer cover at the pivot screw area so I can tighten the screw without problem!!!

I am born cheap, I am not willing to pay over $80 for a pocket knife. So I have to worry about all the stupid things!!!

 

[Alan0354]

This is my 2 most favorite knives:

I just got the top one yesterday, it's Steel Will Warbot. The lower one is the Laurisilva medium size with ball bearings but 0.05" thick at the critical part. The Warbot is hefty. Look at the internal picture, everything is thick:

It uses bronze washers instead of ball bearings. I can still open with a flick of the index finger, not quite as smooth as those with ball bearings. The blade is 0.16" thick, it's thick. Look at the blade tip, it's not going to snap as easy. The two steel liners are 0.06", that's thick!!!!

I already bought a second one as back up because they raise the price right after I bought it, I paid $70. I manage to get the second one for the same price. So what the hack. I think I am good for a while now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True, but when it gets down to 0.03", that's thin. Remember, blade material is optimized for edge retention, meaning they sacrifice toughness. In another word, it tends to be brittle. When getting down to this thin, cracking is more a concern to me upon applying force. Any knife that is $70 or under are made in China. I hate to say being a Chinese, THEY ARE SLOPPY!!! You really trust the consistency of their quenching of the blades? Error in this can make the blade brittle if it is thin.

Also, what you said holds more truth if they use a flat washer where the pressure is applied evenly over the large surface. But with ball bearing, all the pressure are on the tip of those little balls, meaning most of the thin part is NOT being supported.

True, I search on youtube on torturing of knives using it to pry. I have NOT seen it break at the pivot point. BUT, upon checking each knife they use, majority of them don't have ball bearings.

Also, NOT all the ones with ball bearings are thin at that point, I have 3 knives already that are at least 0.05" to 0.07". Anything above 0.05", I totally agree the rest of the structure at the pivot point will strengthen it up and won't be the weakest link of the knife.


To follow up with the sloppy workmanship from China, My favorite knife is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09G2FNM5C?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

I bought 5 and return 1, I measure that part. one is 0.06", two are 0.05", one is 0.04" which I return. I just got another one today that measure 0.047". I am still thinking whether I want to return it or not!!! How can they be so sloppy in making them? The space is very critical it that area. Too thick, the knife binds if you tighten the screw. Too thin, you have slop.

Pivot screw of 80% of knives I bought ( over 10 of different brands) CANNOT be tighten or else the blade will bind or even stuck. they use Lock Tight stuff to glue the screw without tightening it. That's how sloppy they are. Most of them I can thin out the non-metal( they call G10 material) outer cover at the pivot screw area so I can tighten the screw without problem!!!

I am born cheap, I am not willing to pay over $80 for a pocket knife. So I have to worry about all the stupid things!!!

Most of the area isn’t that thin. You’ve focused on the weakest-sounding part, but a part that is backed by thicker metal around it, and both are braced to varying extents by other components.

In one design (the one with the thinnest measurement) you appear to be judging based on a small flange of thin metal inside the main bod of metal. That isn’t a structural member in that situation.

 

[Alan0354]

Most of the area isn’t that thin. You’ve focused on the weakest-sounding part, but a part that is backed by thicker metal around it, and both are braced to varying extents by other components.

In one design (the one with the thinnest measurement) you appear to be judging based on a small flange of thin metal inside the main bod of metal. That isn’t a structural member in that situation.

Maybe. I did think about it, the surrounding is all thick, just the center close to the hole that is thin. Maybe you are right.

I can tell you A LOT of knives disassembly videos show that part is thin( without measuring, seemed like 0.04" or under). This including most of the Kubey 3" or longer folding knives. A lot of Bestech knives also. Maybe there is truth of what you said.

I am NOT a mechanical engineer, I only can look at the obvious things that it's thin. Also, I think I found what I want already. One of my favorite one is at least 0.05" and the other don't even have bearings. So I am good for now.

It's funny I posted the same post in two knife forums, those people don't know jack and just came back and said go buy a more expensive knife!!! Nobody really stop and at least question and talk about my finding whether they agree or not.

Never thought you actually comment base on my finding and say something I have to stop and think and maybe it's valid in more engineering point of view.......In a MARTIAL ART FORUM!!! At least a lot of knives seems to agree with you.

Anyway, I am not a knife enthusiast, it's all for self defense and I want as strong knife like I chose the fiber filled nylon cane for stick fight instead of any wood cane. The knife is only the last line of defense if heaven forbid I lose my cane in the fight. Now it's more important for me to Practice using a knife like I practice stick fight with the cane.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe. I did think about it, the surrounding is all thick, just the center close to the hole that is thin. Maybe you are right.

I can tell you A LOT of knives disassembly videos show that part is thin( without measuring, seemed like 0.04" or under). This including most of the Kubey 3" or longer folding knives. A lot of Bestech knives also. Maybe there is truth of what you said.

I am NOT a mechanical engineer, I only can look at the obvious things that it's thin. Also, I think I found what I want already. One of my favorite one is at least 0.05" and the other don't even have bearings. So I am good for now.

It's funny I posted the same post in two knife forums, those people don't know jack and just came back and said go buy a more expensive knife!!! Nobody really stop and at least question and talk about my finding whether they agree or not.

Never thought you actually comment base on my finding and say something I have to stop and think and maybe it's valid in more engineering point of view.......In a MARTIAL ART FORUM!!! At least a lot of knives seems to agree with you.

Anyway, I am not a knife enthusiast, it's all for self defense and I want as strong knife like I chose the fiber filled nylon cane for stick fight instead of any wood cane. The knife is only the last line of defense if heaven forbid I lose my cane in the fight. Now it's more important for me to Practice using a knife like I practice stick fight with the cane.

My wife has a master’s in mechanical engineering, so I’ve learned to pay attention to some of this.

 

[wab25]

I am born cheap, I am not willing to pay over $80 for a pocket knife. So I have to worry about all the stupid things!!!

Interesting...

On this page (page 3) alone, you have spend $240 on knives....

To follow up with the sloppy workmanship from China, My favorite knife is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09G2FNM5C?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

I bought 5 and return 1

4 at $25 each....

I already bought a second one as back up because they raise the price right after I bought it, I paid $70. I manage to get the second one for the same price

2 at $70 each

Thats $240 total.... And you reference 3 other knives you have purchased.... all on this page.... You could have just bought one of the nicer more expensive knives... and probably saved money.

All this time and money, investigating a point that you feel is weak.... when neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here... could find a single instance of failure, at that point, in your use case. If you had even one example of a failure at that point, it may be worth looking at....

But, hey, its your time and your money....

 

[tkdroamer]

My wife has a master’s in mechanical engineering, so I’ve learned to pay attention to some of this.

Cool. I have an engineering background.