any lord of the rings fans?

[Bigshadow]

From the movies Gandalf really is my favorite. I love the wizard battle in the first movie and I think he did a really good job of playing all the sides, trying to bring everyone together for Aragon to take control and Frodo to have enough time to destroy the ring....

I really liked how Peter Jackson opened the Fellowship of the Ring with the battle against Sauron. That whole cut was just freaking awesome, it made me get goosebumps! Gotta give credit to Howard Shore with his musical scores, they really made the opening scene and the fight scene between Saruman and Gandalf! I bought the CD, it is excellent!

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

id have to say tom bombadil and the balrog are my fave characters , jackson said he wanted the hobbits to go throught the old forest , hear singing and see a hat above the bushes and run away as fast as they can but he didnt have time to do it , its a shame really

a few random facts about tom bombadil:

tom bombadil can be used in the pc game "battle for middle earth 2" , a very powerful character , dances right throught batalions of enemys knocking them everywhere then starts punching them lol


bombadil was sent by iluvutar (sp?) to ea (earth) to look after the forests , it says this in "unfinished tales" , i havent read it so this may be false info , its just what i heard

he could have been a maja or vala

tolkien made the poem "bombadil goes boating" long before and other books , he made it for his children and then made more , he then put bombadil and goldberry into the lord of the rings keeping him and goldbery the same as they were in the poems , kinda like a tribute to his children , he also put "bombadil goes boating" into the lord of the rings , it was made up by one of the hobbits

he was called tom bombadil by the hobbits , orald (very old) by northern men and iarwain ben-adar and "oldest" by the elves

 

[Ping898]

I really liked how Peter Jackson opened the Fellowship of the Ring with the battle against Sauron. That whole cut was just freaking awesome, it made me get goosebumps! Gotta give credit to Howard Shore with his musical scores, they really made the opening scene and the fight scene between Saruman and Gandalf! I bought the CD, it is excellent!

I definitelly agree there!!!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

tom bombadil was, for me, like the razing of the shire. two wonderful parts of the book that would have looked great on film. but when you're already packing almost 10 hours of movie into three flms, you've got to cut something. both were segments you could cut wholesale without affecting anything.

i figured they'd be missing going in, so i wasn't disappointed.

but did anybody else notice the tip of the hat to tom bombadil in the two towers extended version? treebeard rescues merry and pippin from a cranky old tree...

 

[exile]

I really liked how Peter Jackson opened the Fellowship of the Ring with the battle against Sauron. That whole cut was just freaking awesome, it made me get goosebumps! Gotta give credit to Howard Shore with his musical scores, they really made the opening scene and the fight scene between Saruman and Gandalf! I bought the CD, it is excellent!

Yeah, that opening battle---the Last Alliance versus Sauron---was fantastic! And the music was absolutely haunting... it needed to be, given the huge scope of the story and that persistent theme of loss, and it was.

 

[Flying Crane]

but did anybody else notice the tip of the hat to tom bombadil in the two towers extended version? treebeard rescues merry and pippin from a cranky old tree...

Yup, and Treebeard even uses Bombadils' line when he tells the tree to eat earth.

Another similar thing, in the first movie, right after Bilbo leaves the Shire, then Frodo enters Bag End and finds Gandalf deep in thought. Gandalf is muttering to himself, thinking about the ring, and he says "Riddles in the Dark". That was the title of the chapter in The Hobbit, where Bilbo first meets Gollum.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's why Ursula Leguin's Earthsea trilogy (it may be a quartet, now) has so much more impact than a lot of the swords-and-socery genre

There's just no substitute for good writing!

I agree completely---he was an ancient force, older than the Wizards, or the Ents, probably older than everyone except the Valar. And also, yes, Sauron, though a Maiar like the other wizards, seems to have been more powerful than they. But would he have been more powerful than the combined might of all five? Guess we'll never know. But doesn't it seem as though Tolkien is constantly telling us that power and corruption are intimately associated?

The Earthsea Trilogy I think has six books now. Excellent story, deep writing even tho they aren't very long. I think Rowling borrowed pretty heavily from this story with the school for wizards, in the Harry Potter books. Earthsea was much much much much etc. better, however!

The Maiar were sort of lesser versions of the Valar, basically being sort of their assistants, and helpers, and whatnot. In a way, the Valar and Maiar can be compared to angels of different rank, as well as the gods and goddesses of Greek Mythology. There are definite parallels in both of them, yet Illuvatar is the supreme creator of all who resides outside the world. I think the Valar and Maiar are of essentially equal age, being the Children of Illuvatar, tho they hold different rank and levels of power.

Sauron was a very strong Maiar. Saruman and Gandolf were as well, but probably not as strong. Radagast was less strong. The other two wizards are only mentioned in one of the Lost Tales, or something, and don't come into the story. They are just listed as among the five wizards, and these two (both dressed in Blue) passed into the East and out of memory, nobody knows what became of them. Radagast was the friend of the animals, but he got too wrapped up in that and drifted away from the Cause. Saruman, obviously, fell into the trap of power lust. ONly Gandalf remained true to the cause, of acting as a challenge to Sauron's power, encouraging the people of Middle Earth to resist him.

I suspect Bombadil was also one of the Maiar, but just what his rank is, I don't know. I think he just stayed in Middle Earth after the other Valar and Maiar departed in the early days of the world's creation.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Speaking of Tom Bombadil, I wonder how he would have fared, had he faced off in a one-on-one against Sauron...

He wouldn't I don't think Sauron could touch him but I don't think Tom would care. Tom was sort-f above it all, or beneath it all, or just generally uninvolved. More a concious will of nature; good in the way the earth and the trees re good, but not in a way that would take an act to overtly fight evil.

 

[Flying Crane]

I really liked how Peter Jackson opened the Fellowship of the Ring with the battle against Sauron. That whole cut was just freaking awesome, it made me get goosebumps! Gotta give credit to Howard Shore with his musical scores, they really made the opening scene and the fight scene between Saruman and Gandalf! I bought the CD, it is excellent!

Now that was actually a creative liberty that I didn't like. I think the story should have started in the Shire, as it did in the books. Let the story build, let there be some mystery about the ring, what it was, where it came from, why it was a problem, even who is Sauron? Later, when everyone has arrived in Rivendell, Gandalf tells the story of the battle, and Isuldur and stuff, just like in the book. Keep the suspense, then get some clarity and focus on what the mission is to be. I think it could have been more effective if this part was saved for later, as it was done in the book.

 

[Flying Crane]

Speaking of Tom Bombadil, I wonder how he would have fared, had he faced off in a one-on-one against Sauron...

He wouldn't I don't think Sauron could touch him but I don't think Tom would care. Tom was sort-f above it all, or beneath it all, or just generally uninvolved. More a concious will of nature; good in the way the earth and the trees re good, but not in a way that would take an act to overtly fight evil.

Well, I remember in the book, Frodo suggested to Gandalf that maybe Bombadil would be a good keeper of the ring. He wouldn't want to use it, and maybe Sauron couldn't get it from him. Gandalf replied that Bombadil would probably just forget about the ring because he isn't interested in it, and that might enable Sauron to recover it. Gandalf also states that if Sauron wins in the end, Bombadil would probably be the last to stand against him, but ultimately Bombadil would also be defeated.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I really liked how Peter Jackson opened the Fellowship of the Ring with the battle against Sauron. That whole cut was just freaking awesome, it made me get goosebumps! Gotta give credit to Howard Shore with his musical scores, they really made the opening scene and the fight scene between Saruman and Gandalf! I bought the CD, it is excellent!

That was a great opening!

 

[Bigshadow]

Well, I remember in the book, Frodo suggested to Gandalf that maybe Bombadil would be a good keeper of the ring. He wouldn't want to use it, and maybe Sauron couldn't get it from him. Gandalf replied that Bombadil would probably just forget about the ring because he isn't interested in it, and that might enable Sauron to recover it. Gandalf also states that if Sauron wins in the end, Bombadil would probably be the last to stand against him, but ultimately Bombadil would also be defeated.

You have a good memory... I am like Bombadil, I forgot... I now remember that conversation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I remember that as well. Bombadil just would not have been interested enough to keep the ring safe. At least that is what I took from that passage.

 

[exile]

I remember that as well. Bombadil just would not have been interested enough to keep the ring safe. At least that is what I took from that passage.

Yes, me too. And the way Bombadil acts when Frodo gives him the Ring (and remember, Frodo had absolutely no reluctance to give it to Bombadil, in spite of the fact that he'd already been showing signs of becoming really possessive of it---just handed to him without any hesitation?) is like, oh, what's this little trinket? Hmmm, nothing very interesting... It's like it meant absolutely nothing to him at all, held no value whatever.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

that's one compelling reason to have kept bombadil out of the movie. one of the strengths of FOTR was how heavy and terrifying jackson made the ring feel.

to have someone with the essential attitude of 'ring, schming' would have been lethal to that tone.

 

[exile]

to have someone with the essential attitude of 'ring, schming' would have been lethal to that tone.

You may have something there---very nicely put!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

that's one compelling reason to have kept bombadil out of the movie. one of the strengths of FOTR was how heavy and terrifying jackson made the ring feel.

to have someone with the essential attitude of 'ring, schming' would have been lethal to that tone.

Yes I could defintely see that as well. Plus with so many characters already in the movie how would he have made it work. It would have been really hard. The passage where they meet Tom would have at least taken up 15-20 minutes. However it would have been cool!

 

[Flying Crane]

that's one compelling reason to have kept bombadil out of the movie. one of the strengths of FOTR was how heavy and terrifying jackson made the ring feel.

to have someone with the essential attitude of 'ring, schming' would have been lethal to that tone.

Interesting point.

When Tolkien began writing the book, he really didn't know where it would go, nor even what its purpose was. It took a while before he even decided upon the ring as the central focus, and even longer to decide exactly what the ring was, and why it was so dangerous. But in the mean time, he just began writing to get things moving. The first half of the Fellowship of the Ring show this pretty clearly. The four hobbits, upon leaving Bag End, are just sort of on a random series of adventures that they stumble into, not exactly with any culminating purpose. While Mr. Tolkien tightened things up once he determined the purpose of the story and the journey (elements like the presence of the Nazgul in the Shire were added later), I think Bombadil was one of those sort of random encounters that they had in the mean time. It wasn't until they reached the village of Bree, and more so when they reached Rivendell, that the story began to go in a more focused direction. Still, Bombadil found a place in the story, and I think it was good that Mr. Tolkien didn't eliminate him.

 

[zDom]

Fan? You kidding? "Fan" would be an understatement

(although I did laugh *hard* at the Randall vs LoTR fan scene in Clerks II )

Stickarts: I had to laugh at what you wrote. In sixth grade, our teacher would have us come forward and read our favorite poems out loud to the class on occassion.

On one occassion, I read one one of the poems Tolkien wrote entirely in Elvish Talk about worried looks!

Me and a buddy also used to pass notes in Middle Earth languages. I had to look at your name and make sure I wasn't about to reconnect with a long-lost friend.

I've read them many times, but always wind up with a kind of melancholy feeling afterwards that sometimes lasts for days... wonder if this happens to anyone else....

Me too — very much so. I get the same from the Silmarillion, although understandably most people just can't get into those stories as well as LoTR.

Somehow, his books touch me deep inside.

Good discussion, by the way.

- Faramir is also one of my favorite characters.

- Sam WAS very heroic. Based on the relationship of British officers and their enlisted orderlies, so I've read (They're not gay — they're HOBBITS! -- another Clerks II quote )

Tom Bombadill (Tom Bombadill-oh!): he was not Valar nor Maia. He was "first." From what I understand, he was the first created life in creation.
(He was based orginally on a toy Tolkien's children had )

The Ring had no power over him — nor did he have any power over the Ring. Two lines that just don't intersect.

- Sauron was NOT more powerful than the other Maia. He just brokered his power in a way that made him more powerful and more vulnerable by committing a great deal of his power and essence into the Ring. And he was unencumbered by any mandate of non-interference.

Back "in the day," there were even Elves who could defeat Sauron in a one-vs-one battle.

There was, by the way, a Maia that eventually grew so powerful by sucking the essence from the Silmarills that she made Morgoth Bauglir (formerly the Valar known as Melkor) afraid: Ungoliath, who took the form of a giant spider and belched and spun webs of darkness. She was the mother of the spiders that went on to terrorize the elves and attack Frodo and Sam.

She would have kicked Sauron's butt.

From what I understand, there were indeed five Maia that were sent to Middle Earth to help oppose Sauron.

Saruman the White, sent to the western men
Mithrandir the Grey, sent to the elves
Radagast the Brown, sent to the animals

and two others.

Mithrandir/Gandalf wasn't the ONLY one that stayed faithful — he just ended up being most involved in the action without becoming corrupt, like Saruman, or tricked into becoming mostly ineffective, like Radagast.

Presumably, the other two were semi-effective in that Sauron was not able to recruit as many of the other races of men as he would have liked, thanks to their efforts.

It is my belief (Christopher's copywrite notwithstanding )

that one of the other two was Sar'Dacat the Blue, sent to the seafaring and southern men.

The other, his name escapes me (because I haven't made it up yet.. cough.. ) was sent to the men of the east.

All jokes aside, I would very much like to write a couple of novels which would be about what these two Maia did during the Great War of the Ring.

Anybody want to help me convince Christopher to let me do it?

 

[Flying Crane]

- Sauron was NOT more powerful than the other Maia. He just brokered his power in a way that made him more powerful and more vulnerable by committing a great deal of his power and essence into the Ring. And he was unencumbered by any mandate of non-interference.

Back "in the day," there were even Elves who could defeat Sauron in a one-vs-one battle.

There was, by the way, a Maia that eventually grew so powerful by sucking the essence from the Silmarills that she made Morgoth Bauglir (formerly the Valar known as Melkor) afraid: Ungoliath, who took the form of a giant spider and belched and spun webs of darkness. She was the mother of the spiders that went on to terrorize the elves and attack Frodo and Sam.

She would have kicked Sauron's butt.

Well, some Maiar were stronger than others, but it was never clearly defined how to measure that. There is a passage in one of the later volumes that Christopher published, with his fathers old notes and unfinished story segments and revisions and such where Gandalf/Olorin (his Maiar name) was given marching orders by the Valar to return to Middle Earth with Saruman/Curunir and the others, and act as a challenge to Sauron. Olorin expressed his reluctance to go, because he feared Sauron. He was told that that is exactly why he must go. Olorin was also counted among the stronger of the Maiar, but his fear of Sauron is indicative that Sauron was stronger, altho admitedly that was never clearly stated and his fear could just be because Sauron was meaner and more willing to get nasty. The five who returned to Middle Earth were given clear orders that they were not to act as an open power challenge to Sauron, nor to rule and lord over the elves and men and other races. Rather, they were to act as agents of inspiration, to provoke the people to fight back on their own. I guess they sort of went in with at least one arm tied behind their backs.

As far as elves being able to defeat Sauron, and even give Morgoth a good fight, this is an element of the Silmarillian that never quite reconcilled properly in the Lord of the Rings. I think Tolkien sort of switched gears and changed his mind about how powerful certain individuals were, and there were clear inconsistencies between the early works and TLOR. Another example would be the Balrogs. In the Silmarillion, they were fairly common, and could certainly be defeated in the course of battle. But in TLOR, they were rare, and even Gandalf feared to fight one. The balrogs were implied to also be Maiar who joined Melkor when he rebelled against the Valar in the early days. Sauron was Melkor/Morgoth's chief lieutenant, and took up the cause when Melkor was finally defeated. This is another example of the inconsistencies in defining the characters that plagued Tolkien's works. He unfortunately died before working out all those issues, tho he constantly revised things thru his entire life.

I don't recall Ungoliant being a Maiar. Maybe she was, but I don't remember that. She always seemed like a separate power, not clearly defined.

The Valar were certainly the oldest, being created by Iluvatar even before Middle Earth was created. They, in fact, had a hand in its creation, and later entered Middle Earth to dwell there. So Bombadil, whatever he was, was not older than the Valar, even if he was somehow put first into Middle Earth. I remember the passage you are thinking of, I believe Gandalf refers to Bombadil as "oldest". But to consider him absolutely older than the Valar, and perhaps the Maiar, just doesn't jive with the earlier history. Again, I think this is just one of the inconsistencies that plagued Tolkien's work.

I guess the true Tolkien Geeks are showing their colors here...