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7starmantis

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I have seen some people in these forums who believe that all MA have the same basic principles and you should take them and develop them to what matches you as an individual. ANyone agree with that statement? I have to say that if you are not changing yourself, then how are you learning a MA ? And also, what basic principles does muay thai have that kung fu has? I guess I just don't understand.



7sm
 
I would agree that *many* MA have things in common, but not all. The striking arts seem to have things in common, in that they all rely quite a bit on strikes and kicks; the more internal arts rely on manipulation of energy more than trading punches, etc.

My understanding is that there is not a whole lot new in the martial arts world, when it comes down to tools and/or targets. Its the way the arts are put together or practiced, as well as the philosophies and sciences involved that make the arts different. Some arts believe that you should use "one punch, one kill" type methods, others believe that you should flow with your opponent's attacks. It is all in how you look at it.

I would also agree that the best way to do things is to personalize the art of your choice. A formal training in an art is a good thing, but at some point (like, when you get more advanced), it should be more tailored to the individual. If not, I don't think it will be as effective when (or if) it is needed.

Your mileage may vary.

Peace--
 
I have never come across two people who use their art exactly the same. My Aikido is different from that of my Sensei, who's is different from his Sensei and so on up the line. People put their own little twists on each MA so that is works for them. Now I am not saying that a person who has been training for only a few years should decide that what their teacher is teaching them is wrong for them. But I am saying that each person on the road to mastery will add their own flavor to the art, and the art will be stronger for it.

As for the same basic principles it can all be boiled down to this; do what you can to them and keep them from doing what they can to you.
Some forms are more alike than others to the point of having the same moves under different names. The human body only moves in so many ways and can only be manipulated in certin ways, all martial arts will have the same limit in this manner.


Despair Bear
 
most martial arts have the things in common but with little gaps. striking arts rely mostly on kicks, while the gap between them is different styles and forms of kicks. philosophy behind martial arts is really different. its what defines the art, it defines how and in what way to take down the opponent. for example, "using the opponents strengh against him", or "take them down as fast and most beautifully as possible" or just plainly brute force. id say that most MA are on the defensive side. there are more defense/couters as there are offensive moves. arts such as Muay Thai are purely brute force/offense-oriented, while kung fu uses moves that are smooth
 
Are you taking this from the new member MartialArtist 7?

He has said similiar things to what you are bringing up and I am wondering if you got them from him?

Maybe he can compare and contrast and show you the similairites in the styles and the way he views them.
 
Originally posted by Carbon

Are you taking this from the new member MartialArtist 7?

He has said similiar things to what you are bringing up and I am wondering if you got them from him?

Maybe he can compare and contrast and show you the similairites in the styles and the way he views them.

I think he has said things like this to, but not only him, I have heard others too, I'm just curious what everyone thinks about it.


7sm
 
Originally posted by 7starmantis

I have seen some people in these forums who believe that all MA have the same basic principles and you should take them and develop them to what matches you as an individual. ANyone agree with that statement? I have to say that if you are not changing yourself, then how are you learning a MA ? And also, what basic principles does muay thai have that kung fu has? I guess I just don't understand.



7sm
First of all, you can't compare kung fu with muay thai. Kung fu is too broad a term. Maybe with a specific art of kung fu.

Same principles, it's pretty obvious. We are all bound by the same laws of physics, our anatomy is different as I haven't seen a guy with tentacles and 6 legs and if a guy did, his fighting style would be different from bipeds.

I also agree that you develop what is your own. Develop what is best for you.

Similarities are there, you just got to keep an open-mind and not confused by the idea that "my art is better than yours or mine is superior" crap.

Jab
Straight
Roundhouse
Round Kick
Clinching/Locking
Using footwork
Attacking certain areas of the body
The list goes on and on

Some aspects will be different, but in a general sense, yes, they are similiar.
 
Originally posted by MartialArtist


First of all, you can't compare kung fu with muay thai. Kung fu is too broad a term. Maybe with a specific art of kung fu.

I wouldn't say that. As far as similarities, Kung Fu is similar to all styles. That was my point exactly. Kung Fu is a broad term, but all Kung Fu styles are relatively similar, but not to muay thai. That was the point. Yes we all have limitations, but they are all different limitations, I can jump higher or farther than him, he can run faster than me, ect, ect, ect.
That is why, yes, you should specify your style to you, but not all styles are the same basic principles.


7sm
 
On the one hand, there are only so many ways to throw some one or to punch them. Also we are all human so the movement will over lap alot.

On the other, I think the concepts and principles are what seperate the arts. Take Aikido and Daito ryu, while the techniques are very similar the aims and concepts are very different. Or take judo and wrestling, again very similar but very different principles



Tony
 
well I'm new to martial arts in genneral, but because of how I think (I tend to learn completely new things slow and once I get a foundation I realy accelerate alot) I tend to draw alot of cross comparisons (MA - soccer, MA - chess, etc...). So When I see techniques in various martial arts I don't realy look at what is diffrent, I look at the mechanical nature of the technique. When it comes down to it most of what I have seen is mechaicly very simular, most of the real diffrence comes down to cosmetics. The biggest diffrence I see in most arts is how footwork is applied. To say all MA is one thing, that isn't to say Mauy Thai is Kung Fu or Boxing is Judo. When someone says all MA is the same I think they mean when you are fighting, truly fighting not sparring or playing a sport but fighting to win than everyone is playing the same game with the same rules, so the only diffrence is personal preference and the relativly small biometric diffrences from one person to another. When you look at sports, or very specified martial arts you can't always draw a cross comparison because their focus limits movement that may be allowed by a diffrent focus, this can also apply to various systems and styles of martial art, there is a focus and a methodology, but mechanicly speaking it is all the same, we all obay the laws of physics and that's all that matters. The rest is just perspective and details.

Man I hope that made sence.
 
Well we all oeby the laws of physics and thermodynamics, and even gravity. So would jumping and flying be the same thing? Both are breakin the laws of gravity, jumping far shorter than flying, but both are breaking it. Yes, we live in the same physical conditions, but I can train in a way that gives me different limitations, or less limitations than you. Everyone is playing the same game when truly fighting? I think that is the point of any MA system, is so that you are not playing the same game as your opponent. That you are not in the same ballpark, not in the same game as them. Thats what saves you. Yes we both kick with our legs. But to say that is the binding principle of all MA systems is pretty thin. My kicks in PM are not evne close to the kind of kicks you muay thai guys use. Not even close. I'm really not trying to sound argumentative, I'm just really enjoying these discussions. If I am offending anyone, please let me know.


7sm
 
i would say that the only thing that ALL martial arts have in common is learning to defend yourself in extreme circumstances.

sure there are many similarities from style to style, but this "common goal" would be the most justifiable.
 
Originally posted by 7starmantis



I wouldn't say that. As far as similarities, Kung Fu is similar to all styles. That was my point exactly. Kung Fu is a broad term, but all Kung Fu styles are relatively similar, but not to muay thai. That was the point. Yes we all have limitations, but they are all different limitations, I can jump higher or farther than him, he can run faster than me, ect, ect, ect.
That is why, yes, you should specify your style to you, but not all styles are the same basic principles.


7sm
Yes, you can compare styles of kung fu with muay thai. But for example's sake, let's just say we're comparing it with drunken choy li fut. Okay, both use intricate footwork. Both have locks and clinches under their belt. A lot of elbow strikes and they both have certain areas to hit.

Now, the differences are that muay thai likes to kick the leg during competition while d. choy li fut has many techniques hitting the eye.

You just can't look at it and say, "Oh, it's not similiar at all." Do we not kick, punch, and grapple? Is it self-defense (military versions) and a way to reach your potential? I've never seen an art that doesn't attack with general techniques not found in other systems, human anatomy/physiology and the laws of physics are there for a reason. You can't bring pain to another person without doing techniques found in various systems, that's the point. Sure they may be minor differences, but a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch like Bruce Lee said.
 
Originally posted by sweeper

well I'm new to martial arts in genneral, but because of how I think (I tend to learn completely new things slow and once I get a foundation I realy accelerate alot) I tend to draw alot of cross comparisons (MA - soccer, MA - chess, etc...). So When I see techniques in various martial arts I don't realy look at what is diffrent, I look at the mechanical nature of the technique. When it comes down to it most of what I have seen is mechaicly very simular, most of the real diffrence comes down to cosmetics. The biggest diffrence I see in most arts is how footwork is applied. To say all MA is one thing, that isn't to say Mauy Thai is Kung Fu or Boxing is Judo. When someone says all MA is the same I think they mean when you are fighting, truly fighting not sparring or playing a sport but fighting to win than everyone is playing the same game with the same rules, so the only diffrence is personal preference and the relativly small biometric diffrences from one person to another. When you look at sports, or very specified martial arts you can't always draw a cross comparison because their focus limits movement that may be allowed by a diffrent focus, this can also apply to various systems and styles of martial art, there is a focus and a methodology, but mechanicly speaking it is all the same, we all obay the laws of physics and that's all that matters. The rest is just perspective and details.

Man I hope that made sence.
Bump
 
Originally posted by 7starmantis

Well we all oeby the laws of physics and thermodynamics, and even gravity. So would jumping and flying be the same thing? Both are breakin the laws of gravity, jumping far shorter than flying, but both are breaking it. Yes, we live in the same physical conditions, but I can train in a way that gives me different limitations, or less limitations than you. Everyone is playing the same game when truly fighting? I think that is the point of any MA system, is so that you are not playing the same game as your opponent. That you are not in the same ballpark, not in the same game as them. Thats what saves you. Yes we both kick with our legs. But to say that is the binding principle of all MA systems is pretty thin. My kicks in PM are not evne close to the kind of kicks you muay thai guys use. Not even close. I'm really not trying to sound argumentative, I'm just really enjoying these discussions. If I am offending anyone, please let me know.


7sm
The kicks found in muay thai are also found in military TKD. Military TKD uses the roundhouse in which most of you are familiar with and the round kick which is basically the muay thai kick.

Do we not kick? Do we all have the same heart and aren't we going in the same direction, to reach a higher physical and mental state? Even arts that don't have a philosophy behind it have the same concepts of being your best and working. Every sport has it, like American football, most of their training would make you puke.

A motto of the Navy SEALS goes, "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle"

It's about time we start looking at the small details and look bigger.
 
So we are talking about MA systems haveing the same goal, not the same principles? I'm confused.:confused:
 
Not really the principles like soft vs. hard but principles as in the common goal. And, the basic techniques are pretty much similiar. Yeah, they vary, but even with techniques that are different like the round kick and the roundhouse, one can see the similiarities. We all use the same thing. A punch is a punch. A wing chun punch is different from a boxing punch, but it's still a punch. I've never seen an art where they hit with their stomach expecting to bring pain. If they use the stomach, it's to push them or create more space. If they use the arm, it's probably to defend or to attack or to push or to lock up.

All arts have the same essence. There are arts claiming to be different but the only way I will believe them is when they fight standing on their head
The Tao of Jeet Kune Do - Although the wording is different, this is just off the top of my head
 
Originally posted by MartialArtist

I've never seen an art where they hit with their stomach expecting to bring pain.

You must have never seen the movie "Kung Pow" :p

7sm I'm not sure how you kick but I tihnk my statement "When you look at sports, or very specified martial arts you can't always draw a cross comparison because their focus limits movement that may be allowed by a diffrent focus" covers my perspective on it, mauy thai is a ring sport, it places limitations on it's self so some techniques don't make it into the line up. Now if you were to compare to say, my JKD class, I would bet you that our kicks are very simular, speaking biomechanily most kicks are the same, there are only maybe 5 or 6 ways to kick, the rest is just detail.
 
Muay thai, like TKD, comes in two styles.

Muay thai can be associated with the ring.

But, have you ever seen military muay thai? It's pretty different, like the sport style of TKD vs. the military style. There are A LOT MORE clinches, a lot more knees, a lot more chokes, and they are lethal when used properly, just like the techniques of any other unadulterated art.
 
exactly, when the limitations are the same the fighting styles for the given situation start to look alot alike, so when there are ffew or no limitations things look alike.

forgot to respond to this. "So would jumping and flying be the same thing? Both are breakin the laws of gravity, jumping far shorter than flying, but both are breaking it." neither nessisaraly breaks any law of physics.
 

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