All martial arts are ruined by their hubris

[Steve]

I've been fortunate enough to have the experience of grappling and/or sparring with wrestlers, judoka, jiu-jiteiros, capoeristas, karateka, wing chunners, boxers, samboists, MMA fighters, nak muay, aikidoka, power lifters, football players, completely untrained people, and many more.

This experience will help you be a better coach and a well rounded martial artist, but you just can't teach experience. If the goal is to build the same breadth of experience, the best thing the coach can do is expose the student to as many of those same experiences as possible.

And also, "working out with" someone isn't going to be of much benefit, unless it's relatively similar to skills already developed. What I mean is, rolling with a power lifter or an untrained football player isn't the same as fighting them or competing against them or arresting them.

 

[pdg]

I legit cant give a accurate response to that. I wouldn't call it extremely short term, but its shorter rather than longer. I have done it enough to do the four directional patterns to perhaps a grading standard at this point.

You mean 4 direction punch?

To grading standard?

It's not a pattern, it's an exercise.

To get that to grading standard (at least the standard required for that grading) with no previous experience you're talking, what, 4 weeks maybe.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

To get that to grading standard (at least the standard required for that grading) with no previous experience you're talking, what, 4 weeks maybe.

I think its around a month i have seen it cited as on average to get to the yellow tag/belt. (there might be some variation in which organization you go with) Obviously its on averages, some faster some slower.

Yeah, four directional punching.

 

[pdg]

I think its around a month i have seen it cited as on average to get to the yellow tag/belt. (there might be some variation in which organization you go with) Obviously its on averages, some faster some slower.

Yeah, four directional punching.

A month or two is extremely short term...

 

[WaterGal]

But from my experience, we generally practice against a haymaker, and don't get to deal much with other styles of punching coming at us. So is that because a haymaker is the most likely punch you'll see in a street fight? Is it because the training stops before sparring? Is it because the Taekwondo fighters generally don't throw punching combos, so we don't train against it?

Honestly, I think, it's because it's the easiest one to see coming. A person throwing a haymaker telegraphs like crazy, and really throws their body into it. That means you can easily see it ahead of time and use their exaggerated, committed body movement against them.

That's also why so many knife-defense systems teach you to defend against huge sweeping slices/stabs from arms-length.

 

[skribs]

Honestly, I think, it's because it's the easiest one to see coming. A person throwing a haymaker telegraphs like crazy, and really throws their body into it. That means you can easily see it ahead of time and use their exaggerated, committed body movement against them.

That's also why so many knife-defense systems teach you to defend against huge sweeping slices/stabs from arms-length.

I can't really disagree with you there, but that makes it even worse!

I also think this is a big reason people cross-train, is because they notice gaps in what they know. Which is why after I get to be a Master in Taekwondo and my 2nd or 3rd in Hapkido, I may turn towards a punching and/or ground-fighting art.

 

[wab25]

I also think this is a big reason people cross-train, is because they notice gaps in what they know.

Most of those gaps are only there, because the person is stuck in the Shu stage. This is the copying stage. They are just learning to copy the form, nothing more. They can do the form, they can make it look good, they can teach it to somebody else, they can impact a heavy bag quite hard. But, it is still just a copy. As such, they don't know what they have, thus they find "holes" in their system. If they understood what it was that they were copying, they would see that a lot of those "holes" are not really holes... they are filled by things they have already put 1000s of reps into. Instead of switching arts, it would be better to move on to the Ha stage. This is the stage were you diverge from the copy. You are doing different things with the form, beyond just the label and learning the why and how of the movement.

I understand that the drills are to teach my technique. But the drills also train other things - such as timing, distance, and reactions. Doing the drill for a one-step punch I learn to see the haymaker, and my eyes get practice tracking the punch on the way in.

What I'm not getting out of these drills is how to track and time punches coming from the other side, or how to track different punches. And if I start learning to track that when I need it, then I'm going to get hit in the face. It's a lot better if that experience comes from drills or sparring than from a real fight or a match.

Sounds like you need to set up some different drills, using these other kinds of punches. Take two approaches here. First find the correct one step response for each type of punch. Second, take one of the one step responses and find a way to apply it to all the punches.

Unfortunately there's not a lot of time to do that while I'm in class. That's the issue I have.

Its your instructors class, he will teach what he wants. Its your training, get what you need. You may have to meet up with another student for a few minutes before class or after class or at your place on the weekend. You may need to visit some other schools and meet some people.

I had to spend a lot of time and effort to train with, and spar with as many different types of people as I have. I certainly have not done as much as I wanted, and will continue to do more. But, I have met a number of great people and learned many things about my art and about myself.

The tricky part about the Ha stage, is that your instructor can't do it for you. Even if he devoted a whole class to doing these different drills for you, thats still just you copying him. You have to do the work. You have to figure it out. Find out how to make these things work in different situations. Only then will you start to understand what you have. The experience of find out what works, what doesn't work and how to make it work is what really teaches you about the art. Copying will never get you there. (the Ri stage is even tougher... and I can't help you there, I am still trying to quit copying myself)

My point is that you spent so much time in these two arts, why chuck them and start over with something else? You will have to start at the copying stage again, and learn a new set of letters. I would suggest staying with your primary arts and going deeper. As you get to the Ha stage, you will start to truly understand these movements and you will see that there are a lot less gaps than you see now. Yes, this part is an exercise for the student.

 

[pdg]

@wab25 - Shu, ha, ri?

Care to elaborate on these?

 

[skribs]

Sounds like you need to set up some different drills, using these other kinds of punches. Take two approaches here. First find the correct one step response for each type of punch. Second, take one of the one step responses and find a way to apply it to all the punches.

I'm not the master. I don't have the authority to dictate how classes go.

 

[dvcochran]

My point is, for the most part in a one-step drill, you're training AGAINST a single punch with a step. If that's the type of punch you always train against, what are you going to do against a boxer who throws a jab (the other hand than you've trained to defend), pulls back his cross after it lands/misses, or throws an uppercut? What are you going to do if you go against a Wing Chun fighter who uses inside leverage on his strikes?

It's not about YOUR technique. It's about the technique the other person is using. There's a big difference between a haymaker, a 1-2-hook-uppercut combo, and a fast combo of centerline straight punches. If all you ever train against is a haymaker, are you going to be prepared to deal with left hand or deal with combos?

Like I expanded on in my thoughts, I think in another art, like kickboxing or karate, there will probably be more sparring that allows you to explore these concepts in full and expand on the drills. But because KKW schools tend to teach WT sparring, 95-100% of your sparring in a KKW school is going to be towards the kick game. So maybe the issue here is that the teaching on punch defense ends at the drill stage instead of being allowed to move into sparring (especially since punches are restricted and generally of little use to the point game).

But from my experience, we generally practice against a haymaker, and don't get to deal much with other styles of punching coming at us. So is that because a haymaker is the most likely punch you'll see in a street fight? Is it because the training stops before sparring? Is it because the Taekwondo fighters generally don't throw punching combos, so we don't train against it?



The structure not being compromised is what allows us to get the tap. And the structure is usually not compromised as a combination of footwork and a wristlock.

Like I said, I am just an orange belt in Hapkido. I've been doing Taekwondo 6 days a week for 4 years, plus another 5 years before that of 3 days a week. I've done Hapkido once a week for 2 years. So my knowledge of Taekwondo and my position in the curriculum is much more advanced. So some of this may come with time (and having been the partner for blue, red, and black belts, I know some of it will come). But even as other things are added in, it still seems to be about 50% wrist grabs and 60% wrist locks.

There are other ways to accomplish what you say with the wrist locks. Muay Thai does this with the clinch. Wrestling to some degree with overhooks and underhooks. Judo with shoulder grabs, hip throws, and armbars. BJJ with chokes. All of these clinching or grappling techniques seek to gain leverage on your attacker. But different arts focus on different targets, and Hapkido seems to focus on the wrist.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I think your field is too narrow for the views you have. If you have only seen one steps then you have only seen a very limited version of the usual training. Same for your Hapkido, like one of the other poster's said. You seem to be one of the many (millennial?) who haven't figured out that to learn some things in the MA and FMA just take time. There is a BIG difference in knowing the motions of a move and knowing the move well and effectively.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

[/QUOTE]

I think your field is too narrow for the views you have. If you have only seen one steps then you have only seen a very limited version of the usual training. Same for your Hapkido, like one of the other poster's said. You seem to be one of the many (millennial?) who haven't figured out that to learn some things in the MA and FMA just take time. There is a BIG difference in knowing the motions of a move and knowing the move well and effectively.[/QUOTE]
What would being a millennial have to do with this?

 

[Flying Crane]

Most of those gaps are only there, because the person is stuck in the Shu stage. This is the copying stage. They are just learning to copy the form, nothing more. They can do the form, they can make it look good, they can teach it to somebody else, they can impact a heavy bag quite hard. But, it is still just a copy. As such, they don't know what they have, thus they find "holes" in their system. If they understood what it was that they were copying, they would see that a lot of those "holes" are not really holes... they are filled by things they have already put 1000s of reps into. Instead of switching arts, it would be better to move on to the Ha stage. This is the stage were you diverge from the copy. You are doing different things with the form, beyond just the label and learning the why and how of the movement.

Sounds like you need to set up some different drills, using these other kinds of punches. Take two approaches here. First find the correct one step response for each type of punch. Second, take one of the one step responses and find a way to apply it to all the punches.

Its your instructors class, he will teach what he wants. Its your training, get what you need. You may have to meet up with another student for a few minutes before class or after class or at your place on the weekend. You may need to visit some other schools and meet some people.

I had to spend a lot of time and effort to train with, and spar with as many different types of people as I have. I certainly have not done as much as I wanted, and will continue to do more. But, I have met a number of great people and learned many things about my art and about myself.

The tricky part about the Ha stage, is that your instructor can't do it for you. Even if he devoted a whole class to doing these different drills for you, thats still just you copying him. You have to do the work. You have to figure it out. Find out how to make these things work in different situations. Only then will you start to understand what you have. The experience of find out what works, what doesn't work and how to make it work is what really teaches you about the art. Copying will never get you there. (the Ri stage is even tougher... and I can't help you there, I am still trying to quit copying myself)

My point is that you spent so much time in these two arts, why chuck them and start over with something else? You will have to start at the copying stage again, and learn a new set of letters. I would suggest staying with your primary arts and going deeper. As you get to the Ha stage, you will start to truly understand these movements and you will see that there are a lot less gaps than you see now. Yes, this part is an exercise for the student.

I’m not familiar with the terms you are using, but agree with your message.

 

[dvcochran]

I think your field is too narrow for the views you have. If you have only seen one steps then you have only seen a very limited version of the usual training. Same for your Hapkido, like one of the other poster's said. You seem to be one of the many (millennial?) who haven't figured out that to learn some things in the MA and FMA just take time. There is a BIG difference in knowing the motions of a move and knowing the move well and effectively.[/QUOTE]
What would being a millennial have to do with this?[/QUOTE]
Age, wanting it and wanting it now syndrome.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Age, wanting it and wanting it now syndrome.

To me, that is something that would be more related to time in MA then age. From what I remember from my undergrad courses, that delayed gratification stuff is more or an innate trait than something that changes through time.

 

[dvcochran]

To me, that is something that would be more related to time in MA then age. From what I remember from my undergrad courses, that delayed gratification stuff is more or an innate trait than something that changes through time.

??

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

??

The idea of wanting something now. In regards to understanding MA is a long-term thing, I would relate it more to time practicing MA then to age. And with 'wanting it now', from what I remember, that is more based on innate traits and upbringing and tends to be a consistent characteristic over someones life, rather than something that changes as they get older.

Unless your suggestion was that something about the specific generation of millenials, unrelated to age, causes them to have that want it now mentality.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

One-Step Punch Defense
The self defense we learn in my Taekwondo classes, and from a lot of the videos I've seen covering more traditional versions (as opposed to "modern" or "practical" versions) of Taekwondo and Karate are one-step punches. These are trained to defend against a punch that comes in just like a punch from a poomsae or kata: step forward into front stance and throw your weight into that punch.

Now, the "practical" application of this is that you're defending against a haymaker, instead of a string of punches. Because most people who are going to sucker punch you are going to use a haymaker (and hopefully those with the mindset to train martial arts won't use them aggressively on the street). But still, if someone is using boxing style punches, half the techniques will be different when dealing with a right cross than dealing with the right reverse punch. If someone is using a more symmetrical type of punching, like Wing Chun, then the one-step drills will also fall flat

How does an art "get over itself" and train to fight against other arts? Or is that up to the individual fighter to look at what he needs to learn to defeat another art?

Simply answer: go against someone with a different MA background. In my studio we had people who trained in; judo, Shotokan, Hapkido, jujitsu and even a boxer come in. I have watched every one of them keep to the roots they know when I have a sparring match with them.

Where am I wrong in my understanding of these arts and the defense drills they provide?

Answer: I had questions regarding why we had such choreographed movements as well. It was then that I learned that these movements were to engrain the muscle memory and to work out easy to use moves. "Line, Beuty Speed" is what it was summed up as. We had to get moves down "Line", grow and expand on what those movements can be used for " Beuty", then train until the evolved movements become quick and effective "speed".

 

[skribs]

I think your field is too narrow for the views you have. If you have only seen one steps then you have only seen a very limited version of the usual training. Same for your Hapkido, like one of the other poster's said. You seem to be one of the many (millennial?) who haven't figured out that to learn some things in the MA and FMA just take time. There is a BIG difference in knowing the motions of a move and knowing the move well and effectively.

I've got 9 years of Taekwondo training. 5 at my current school. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in the art. I think that would have happened by now.

 

[wab25]

@wab25 - Shu, ha, ri?

Care to elaborate on these?

Sorry. Skribs had started another thread on stages of learning, where I posted a link to an explaination of the Shu-Ha-Ri method. This is what many Japanese arts use to transmit the art to new people.

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

Basically, the Shu stage is where you copy. This is learning the katas or forms. The Ha stage is where you diverge from the kata and start to make it your own. The process of learning how and where to diverge as well as why, is the important bit, as it helps you understand better your art. Ri is where you throw away the kata.

I find that way too many people are stuck just copying and never knowing exactly what it is they are copying. Too many think that the kata/forms are the art as opposed to the kata/forms being the method of transmitting the art. More specifically, they are the material for the Shu stage, for people to copy, as a beginner.

 

[wab25]

I've got 9 years of Taekwondo training. 5 at my current school. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in the art. I think that would have happened by now.

I think a lot of us think that should have happened by now... but it hasn't. This is an exercise for the student. You can change masters or change arts... but you will never get it until you go beyond copying. This is the students responsibility.

I'm not the master. I don't have the authority to dictate how classes go.

I never said that you should dictate how the class goes, or even ask for him to change how class goes. If he changes how class goes, to cover this for you, you are still just copying. The piece you are missing only comes from exploring and experimenting, trying to figure it out for yourself. No one can give that to you. You need to take time outside of class, as I said, a few minutes before or after. Or find a different venue or a different club. Meet a class mate down at the park to train on your own and set up these drills. Its the only way you are going to learn what you are copying.