Striking With Shoulder How Would You Respond?

[Aiki Lee]

We have a similar thing in our art called taiken (body fist). It is done from grappling range though and is not a charging or rushing attack. It is done to unbalnce the opponent to set up a throw, or to knock them down. If you are countering this type of strike (the way we do it), a sacrifice throw is in order if you are late. If you catch it in time pivot and throw them.

For what Alex is describing, I'll agree with a palm to the head after pivoting.

 

[yak sao]

In Wing Chun stemming from the "WT" lineages there is a very effective bok-da or shoulder-punch applied at very close range, often as a defense against an attempted arm grapple. It doesn't rise up from the ground like a football hit, and it isn't a "push". It snaps sideways horizontally with a sharp release of springy energy generated by the stance and torso, and done right it can not only knock the wind out of you, it can put you through the wall.

BTW, that's not an exaggeration. I once saw LT demonstrate this technique on one of my kung-fu brothers and it literally drove him butt first through the wall. Fortunately, he impacted between the studs, so it was mostly just the layers of drywall that gave way. Nevertheless, we were asked by the hotel management never to come back. Sheesh! Some people just don't appreciate martial artistry.

You damn rock stars....going around trashing hotel rooms.......

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, thank you. I take great pride in that most people who try to sweep me walk away limping. I.E, I root hard. But I have noticed the harder I'd try to stay put, the easier I'd be to shove.

I tend to prefer stepping at angles or circles to such attacks, is there no way to perhaps side step the attack? While powerful, it is still small that it shouldn't be too hard to avoid. He is very sneaky about it. I've found it better to keep my range until I find a sound method to dealing with that..

Root hard and you get uprooted with Kao. As for side stepping, it depends on where he hits you with his shoulder and if it is done properly he will strike your center so circling or angles may not work. If he is close enough to touch you with his shoulder it won't work. You basically have what I told you or retreat. You can try and absorb if you have trained it but if the Kao is correct it is hard and fast and hard to absorb

If a taiji/bagua style shoulder strike is done really well, it won't just bounce you away, it will uproot and have the opponent horizontal and hitting the ground hard. A lot of people also say "why would you want to bounce your opponent away"? In a self defense situation? Because it's a devastating way of using your environment. Slam them to the floor, slam them against a wall or a table or a car. Not fun. Especially if the person is good at it.

Yup

Pivot, grab, and throw.

Here is the thing about kao done right from a Yang style Taiji perspective, I did not initiate it, you did. So pivot grab throw is likely not an option. Actually Kao can be the result if you grab right and try and throw, If you lead a good Yang style guy the right way you will get kao.

I have said on MT many times that with Xingyiquan that attack is attack and defense is attack but with Taijiquan (and I can only speak for my flavor of Yang style) Defense is defense and attack is defense. It will attack you but you made it attack… and that is all of the Taiji secrets I’m posting

We have a similar thing in our art called taiken (body fist). It is done from grappling range though and is not a charging or rushing attack. It is done to unbalnce the opponent to set up a throw, or to knock them down. If you are countering this type of strike (the way we do it), a sacrifice throw is in order if you are late. If you catch it in time pivot and throw them.

For what Alex is describing, I'll agree with a palm to the head after pivoting.

Kao, in Yang Taiji as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh is not to unbalance or bounce your opponant, it is to hit and hit hard, uproot and knock down your opponant and it is a damn hard thump in the middle of the chest

 

[blindsage]

Root hard and you get uprooted with Kao. As for side stepping, it depends on where he hits you with his shoulder and if it is done properly he will strike your center so circling or angles may not work. If he is close enough to touch you with his shoulder it won't work. You basically have what I told you or retreat. You can try and absorb if you have trained it but if the Kao is correct it is hard and fast and hard to absorb

Exactly.

Yup

Ummm, wait, are we agreeing again.

Here is the thing about kao done right from a Yang style Taiji perspective, I did not initiate it, you did. So pivot grab throw is likely not an option. Actually Kao can be the result if you grab right and try and throw, If you lead a good Yang style guy the right way you will get kao.

I have said on MT many times that with Xingyiquan that attack is attack and defense is attack but with Taijiquan (and I can only speak for my flavor of Yang style) Defense is defense and attack is defense. It will attack you but you made it attack… and that is all of the Taiji secrets I’m posting

Sharing the secrets won't matter without the vocabulary to understand it. Like the classics, it's gibberish.

Kao, in Yang Taiji as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh is not to unbalance or bounce your opponant, it is to hit and hit hard, uproot and knock down your opponant and it is a damn hard thump in the middle of the chest

I don't think it's any particular lineage, that's just Yang Taiji, and very few get that.

 

[MJS]

my sifu uses it, it's not that mysterious nor difficult. If you understand how to root your stance and use that to drive a strike, then using it with the shoulder as the weapon, and the mass of the body behind it, it's not that difficult.

Exactly! There're a few techniques in the Arnis that I do, in which this move is used. And you're right, once you get the concepts behind it, its not difficult at all.

 

[Zenjael]

To Oaktree; unfortunantely my training in Bagua did not encompass that. Perhaps I was not skilled enough. Apology if I am not familiar with it in that system.

To Cyriacus; I am tempted to do either that, sweep the front load-bearing leg, or to torque his shoulders and drop him like that. The problem is that he is about equal in terms of jiujitsu to my hapkido skill, and so is just as likely to take me down once within that grasping range, or will drag me along with him if I do take him to the ground. I am trying to avoid that, both because his ground game is better than mine, but also because I just hate being on the ground. In Krav Maga it's something to avoid in terms of oneself, or if put on the ground get right back up. Just because it goes to the ground doesn't mean it has to stay on the ground. That's my mentality, at least. I understand the importance of having ground-game, but as a very small individual, male, it's something I should generally avoid save when directly working on practicing ground maneuvers.

To Blindsage; I can see very much how that is so. He has experience in Taijiquan. The issue is less that he is striking me in my shoulder, but moreso that he is striking me in my midsection, stomach to above sternum, and that is difficult to roll around. I do that with punching a lot, and while I was able to do that with his strikes, especially handwork, I was not able to his shoulder. The amount of ground needed to initiate it is very minimal. I'm mostly relying on intuition and anticipation that it's his only counter to my close game handwork, rather than reacting as I normally would. I suppose I should practice with him more, concerning it, shouldn't I?

To WC_Lun; I concur that it would be most advantageous to keep my distance. Point in fact, when I did that for the first half of our bout, I did far better than before. Once I decided to change tactic and close distance it became an issue. If this was survival, or competition, I'd agree. Stay the hell out of range. But in terms of technique building and learning, the only way to grow is with contact.

I agree striking has been totally ineffectual. I can see why now thanks to your explanation. Job 1 and 2 I have pretty down pat. Job 3 does feel most often like a reset. I'd say out of 6-7 shoulder strikes, he may get 1 grab in. Considering how many exchanges we may have over a 30 minute sparring session, that's a fair amount to me, even if for others it may be even more, or far less than what they experience. But even those resets are giving him more than I'd like to, which in terms of fighting is total domination, without having to ante up, without taking advantage of experience difference with say being advanced skillwise, and them not.

 

[WC_lun]

Zenj, if you are being knocked back, you didn't understand what I meant by rooting and learning how to do it. So no, you don't have it down pat. Nothing wrong with that, but it is important to know what you don't understand.

I get that you may be letting him get shoulder strikes in so you can practice how to react to it. However, if he is consistantly knocking you back, you need to work instead on not letting him get to that position. Resetting is not the best option when it comes to fighting, particularly if it is self defense. You do not want him on equal footing with you. Your job is to put him in recovery mode and keep him there until he is no longer a threat. Even a good sport martial artist will try to do this. So while working on countering the shoulder strike is okay, your time would be better served in figuring out how to keep him off balance and recovering so he can never throw that technique. If your going to work on counters for the "huh oh, i screwed up and now i'm in a bad position" techniques, start with drilling them. The drills are more effective in training you to react to them rather than open sparring. You feel something a hundred times you will learn more than if you feel it six or seven times. That is why martial artist use drills and don't spar %100 of the time.

 

[oaktree]

Zenjael, in baguazhang if you are being pushed hard you need to change.
What I mean is baguazhang does not meet force with force it changes. If a straight line
Is pushing to hard then use that momentum to push yourself off the line by either spinning or
Using Bai bu. In taijiquan I wad taught if an someone is pushing hard sink back and down letting him
Extend himself and catch him off balance. Another I was taught is as soon
As you feel the slightest force you can start turning,relaxing , that is why listening skills are so
Important to learn to develop the sensitive touching needed to change in the internal arts.

 

[Zenjael]

Zenjael, in baguazhang if you are being pushed hard you need to change.
What I mean is baguazhang does not meet force with force it changes. If a straight line
Is pushing to hard then use that momentum to push yourself off the line by either spinning or
Using Bai bu. In taijiquan I wad taught if an someone is pushing hard sink back and down letting him
Extend himself and catch him off balance. Another I was taught is as soon
As you feel the slightest force you can start turning,relaxing , that is why listening skills are so
Important to learn to develop the sensitive touching needed to change in the internal arts.

I've considered that move, in spinning away, but it's been awhile with practice. I'll work on it.

He does always extend himself, but remains rooted.

 

[oaktree]

I dont know how he is over extended and still rooted.
If he is over extended he should be off balance.
My teacher has strong root,outweighs me by 100 pounds,
But when he pushes strong and I properly apply overextending him he is off balance.
Well only when he let's me. You need a teacher to teach those skills and it requires a lot
Of push hands with an experience person.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

an easier method I'm not thinking of.

- Spin your body,
- add his pushing with your pulling, and
- lead him into the emptiness.

 

[blindsage]

To Blindsage; I can see very much how that is so. He has experience in Taijiquan. The issue is less that he is striking me in my shoulder, but moreso that he is striking me in my midsection, stomach to above sternum, and that is difficult to roll around. I do that with punching a lot, and while I was able to do that with his strikes, especially handwork, I was not able to his shoulder. The amount of ground needed to initiate it is very minimal. I'm mostly relying on intuition and anticipation that it's his only counter to my close game handwork, rather than reacting as I normally would. I suppose I should practice with him more, concerning it, shouldn't I?

Absolutely, you should practice with him more. Here's a drill you can try. Have a training partner push you lightly but solid in different directions on different parts of the body and just move with it in whatever direction feels natural, don't necessarily try to get away, roll around it, away from it or into it. Now, have your partner push directly in the middle of your chest, and play with how you can move around it. This should give you some insight in how you might be able to deal with a shoulder strike directly to the central torso.

But even those resets are giving him more than I'd like to, which in terms of fighting is total domination, without having to ante up, without taking advantage of experience difference with say being advanced skillwise, and them not.

I hope your goal in sparring is not domination, unless you're training for competition. Otherwise, sparring should be seen as just another learning tool. You can attempt to dominate at times, but at other times you can and should use it to refine skills under pressure. Getting hit in sparring is not losing, it's learning.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here is the thing about Kao done right, the guy doing kao did not initiate it the opponent did so being the opponent and trying to figure out how to defend against it by spinning, turning and pulling may not do a thing for you and it certainly over complicates things.

It takes a little time to get the proper feel but all you need to do is simply push him on the shoulder at the right time and he falls over

That’s it, I’m done, good luck

 

[WC_lun]

Zenj, stop using the word root. You aren't understanding it, so much of what we are telling you is falling on deaf ears. A lot of people go through this. We think we know what rooting means until we meet someone who actually does it. You aren't rooted if you are over-extending yourself. You aren't rooted if you are knocked back. It isn't bad that you aren't able to root properly, it just means you have something you should learn. find a teacher and learn. A good bauqua teacher for example. I know most CMA teachers worth thier salt have this as part of thier training. Not sure about other arts, but I'd assume at least part of them do.

Here's a beginning level skill check for you on rooting. Stand in a front stance and have your buddy push against your chest, starting with a little pressue and increasing until he is pushing as hard as he can. If you are able to root properly, he will not be able to push you over or away. DO NOT push back. That is not rooting, but rather trying to meet force with force and not the point of the skill check. If done correctly the energy he is giving you in the push will go to ground. Again this is a check for beginning level rooting, not a fighting technique.

 

[oaktree]

Hey xue the spin or turn is a way to maintain balance if you are
Being pushed off balance and back. If the attacker is pushing full force
As in blasting through you, in baguazhang we use spin/turning energy.
Best way to illustrate it is get a rubber ball and a pen and slowly use the pen
To push it forward. The ball will roll over the pen's side.
But thats baguazhang way of dealing with force as I was taught.
Well maybe I learned it wrong I am groogy eyed during class sometimes.
By the way cool story involving straight force and turning energy.
I was driving a car and I got tboned by a Benz as soon as I felt the car touch
My door I turned the car to angle the Benz off my car. Baguazhang can be applied to
Driving cars too. Gan en jie kuai le wo de pengyou!

 

[geezer]

...I was driving a car and I got tboned by a Benz...

Random question: Hey Oaktree are you from Hong Kong or somewhere else in southeast Asia? Just wondering because the only other person I knew who used to use the word Benz was my old sifu from Hong Kong. Here in the States we Gwai-lo say Mercedes. LOL

Sorry about the digression. Although I've never been formally diagnosed, I'm probably ADD or something similar. But your original point is well taken. My core art is WC and we use our brand of turning to evade, yield, and deflect as well. Like you, my old sifu (the guy who'd say "Benz") said we should apply the same principles to everything in life. That would include driving too, I guess.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey xue the spin or turn is a way to maintain balance if you are
Being pushed off balance and back. If the attacker is pushing full force
As in blasting through you, in baguazhang we use spin/turning energy.
Best way to illustrate it is get a rubber ball and a pen and slowly use the pen
To push it forward. The ball will roll over the pen's side.
But thats baguazhang way of dealing with force as I was taught.
Well maybe I learned it wrong I am groogy eyed during class sometimes.
By the way cool story involving straight force and turning energy.
I was driving a car and I got tboned by a Benz as soon as I felt the car touch
My door I turned the car to angle the Benz off my car. Baguazhang can be applied to
Driving cars too. Gan en jie kuai le wo de pengyou!

True, if I were attacking but I would not be attacking in the since most seem to be looking at it here. Kao would not be used unless you the Bagua guy put me the Taiji guy, in a position to use it. I would not be looking for an opening to use kao I would be waiting for you to make me use kao (more to the point I would feel when your force lead me to kao automatically), that is how it works. Also Kao is not a push, it is not for blasting through it is to up root you (break your root) and it is aimed at your center not your arm or your leg or your door. If using the car analogy it would hit you square in the middle of your car, not your door. If you pivot or turn after kao I will stick and follow and do whatever the current force requires. If I use kao and up root you I do not fall down nor do I follow, I am attacking your center and your root and unless you stop me early in the move towards kao that you put me in you will be uprooted. Other option is disengage quickly, if possible (and it may not be based on your energy and root).

What many are missing here is you put that taiji guy in a position to use kao based on where your energy is going. You are not standing there waiting for kao, it is just all of a sudden there where you previously thought you had taken the advantage and felt you were in control. Your force and mass are already going in the proper direction to use kao and it is really hard for anyone to reverse themselves quick enough and maintain control becuase once you do reverse yourself you are no longer in control, you are trying to run away (if you will) and taiji, done right, will follow and now I may switch to Peng or Ji or An or or Lie or Zhou, I never lost my root nor did I ever over commit myself. But push my shoulder properly on the way in and I will likely fall over, depending on how I am applying Kao, and there is more than one way to apply it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Random question: Hey Oaktree are you from Hong Kong or somewhere else in southeast Asia? Just wondering because the only other person I knew who used to use the word Benz was my old sifu from Hong Kong. Here in the States we Gwai-lo say Mercedes. LOL.

Most from Beijing use Benz too

 

[oaktree]

Ah that makes sense xue.
Always great to learn something new and a new perspective on things.
Hey geezer no I am not from Hong Kong, I was just to last to type Mercedes on my phone.