Aikido vs. Hapkido?
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FearlessFreep
Senior Master
My totally uninformed impression is that they both use a lot of circular body motion to re-direct the opponents force, but that Hakido uses smaller circles to Aikido's larger ones
They have the same root art, Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu. They are both translations of the same Kanji in Japanese and Korean, to the best of my understanding.
Many people say that Hapkido is "combat effective Aikido", "hard Aikido", "Aikido with punching and kicking" or some other innacurate generality. In reality, Aikido ranges from Ki Society flowing movements with little focus on martial ability to Yoshinkan and Tenshin forms with much atemi, small circles and very martial movements. Hapkido varies from a practical and beautiful art similar to Daito Ryu, practiced by people wearing Hakama, to a catalogue of very painful and effective but static and often decontextualized self-defense techniques, to Tae Kwon Do with some basic lock and throws grafted on.
So there are good and bad varieties of both arts. My Aikido Sensei was a fourth degree in Hapkido before he had to stop training. When he started Aikido, almost all of the techniques were already familiar to him.
Many people say that Hapkido is "combat effective Aikido", "hard Aikido", "Aikido with punching and kicking" or some other innacurate generality. In reality, Aikido ranges from Ki Society flowing movements with little focus on martial ability to Yoshinkan and Tenshin forms with much atemi, small circles and very martial movements. Hapkido varies from a practical and beautiful art similar to Daito Ryu, practiced by people wearing Hakama, to a catalogue of very painful and effective but static and often decontextualized self-defense techniques, to Tae Kwon Do with some basic lock and throws grafted on.
So there are good and bad varieties of both arts. My Aikido Sensei was a fourth degree in Hapkido before he had to stop training. When he started Aikido, almost all of the techniques were already familiar to him.
matt.m
Senior Master
This is my knowledge as it istands........Takeda taught Choi and Ueshiba. The two were classmates. They are quite similiar to the naked eye.
I have had the privilege of having two seperate training days with two different aikido black belts.
I showed them the 25 wrist and 25 clothes techniques that are taught in moo sul kwan hapkido. Both aikidoists knew, and did the techniques. However, there were little nuances that made them different.
I also noted that the aikido application was less brutal if you will. Not less effective, less brutal.
However, similiar as they may be, let me be really clear.....hapkido is not combat effective aikido, aikido and hapkido are totally different in their insertion and applications.
I have had the privilege of having two seperate training days with two different aikido black belts.
I showed them the 25 wrist and 25 clothes techniques that are taught in moo sul kwan hapkido. Both aikidoists knew, and did the techniques. However, there were little nuances that made them different.
I also noted that the aikido application was less brutal if you will. Not less effective, less brutal.
However, similiar as they may be, let me be really clear.....hapkido is not combat effective aikido, aikido and hapkido are totally different in their insertion and applications.
Interesting, Matt. Thanks.
Do you have any idea as to the history of Hapkido that makes it more "brutal"? Coming from Aikido, I know of his encounter with Omoto Kyo and Onisaburo Deguchi. This religious influence guided his development of Aikido from the old art. What caused Choi to create a new art, rather than just teaching Daito Ryu. Was it just because as a Korean he couldn't get a teaching certificate in a Japanese art? Or was it some more profound theoretical difference?
To you knowledge, how does Hapkido differer from Daito Ryu, in technique and application? Daito Ryu is also supposed to be more brutal than Aikido.
Can anyone with a knowledge of both modern arts give a specific example of how the two are similar but different? Differences in a specific technique, maybe? Thanks.
Stan
Do you have any idea as to the history of Hapkido that makes it more "brutal"? Coming from Aikido, I know of his encounter with Omoto Kyo and Onisaburo Deguchi. This religious influence guided his development of Aikido from the old art. What caused Choi to create a new art, rather than just teaching Daito Ryu. Was it just because as a Korean he couldn't get a teaching certificate in a Japanese art? Or was it some more profound theoretical difference?
To you knowledge, how does Hapkido differer from Daito Ryu, in technique and application? Daito Ryu is also supposed to be more brutal than Aikido.
Can anyone with a knowledge of both modern arts give a specific example of how the two are similar but different? Differences in a specific technique, maybe? Thanks.
Stan
matt.m
Senior Master
You know Stan I am not 100% sure. However my dad is 4th generation from the founder. It would go Choi-> Won-Kwang Wha -> Lee H. Park -> Mike Morton. I know dad has mountains of respect for Ueshiba.
I have a theory of hapkido being a more brutal approach because the Koreans had just come away from Japanese occupation. That is why I believe Tae kwon Do, true tae kwon do to be more brutal than karate.
To give an example of what I got from my time training with the aikido 5th dans, remember this is based on the 50 techniques in 4 hrs time over a two day period......
When doing wrist technique #1 from Moo Sul Kwan not only is the person off balance and leaning back in pain from pressure not only on the wrist but to try and stand erect it would at a minimum dislocate a shoulder.
Under the same technique shown in aikido there is pressure on the wrist only, not the shoulder. It is an off balance technique only.
I have a theory of hapkido being a more brutal approach because the Koreans had just come away from Japanese occupation. That is why I believe Tae kwon Do, true tae kwon do to be more brutal than karate.
To give an example of what I got from my time training with the aikido 5th dans, remember this is based on the 50 techniques in 4 hrs time over a two day period......
When doing wrist technique #1 from Moo Sul Kwan not only is the person off balance and leaning back in pain from pressure not only on the wrist but to try and stand erect it would at a minimum dislocate a shoulder.
Under the same technique shown in aikido there is pressure on the wrist only, not the shoulder. It is an off balance technique only.
zDom
Senior Master
Heya Stan,
There is a lot of discussion and argument on these questions
Some people hold that Choi did not in fact teach hapkido, but merely passed along what he had learned, often calling it "yawara," and that hapkido really became "hapkido" with Choi's students who added in dynamic kicking techniques, among other things.
As for being more brutal, Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was a "jutsu" which can be defined as techniques practiced for the purpose of using them in combat. It was a Samurai art for use in those rare instances in which they did not have a sword in hand.
Ueshiba, as I understand it, believed that in an age of guns and whatnot, that the things he learned were better off as a "Do" (pronounced doe) in which the practice is merely a means toward self improvement by striving for perfection, a way doing things that should eventually be manifested in all areas of life, not just in the practice of techniques.
Hapkido as I am learning it (from Matt's father, btw), is very practical -- in fact, I sometimes wonder if they should have called it Hapki yu-sul, the Korean equivalent of Aiki ju jutsu. In fact, this was one of the names used before they settled on "hapkido."
Korea, as I understand it, was a rough place around the time hapkido was being formed, which probably has something to do with why it developed as as extremely practical art as opposed to a "inner" art like aikido.
But after further thought on the matter, I have noticed how hapkido HAS manifested itself in my life in other ways than simply the practice and application of martial art techniques.
So while hapkido IS a very "justu"-sh (or actually "yusul"-ish) art for many, it IS something more than just martial art techniques.
Something else to consider: there are many styles of hapkido as Choi's early students each learned seperately and passed down their techniques to their students with their own influences.
For example, Moo Sul Kwan hapkido (formed in the U.S. by Lee H. Park) comes from the Korean Musoolkwan which was formed by Won-Kwang Wha, as Matt noted.
Won learned directly from Choi, so I understand, but also from Choi's first Korean student, Bok, Sub-suh who was a black belt in Judo.
Accordingly, MSK hapkido is known for its full-circle throws (like judo) whereas other hapkido styles do not always have these included. Also, many techniques deal with defenses against clothing grabs -- something a judoka would be very interested in, especially in a time and place where judo was very widespread.
MSK hapkido is also heavily influenced by the kicking reportedly brought back from Korean temples by Kim, Moo-hyun (along with Ji, Han-Jae). So MSK hapkido is also known for its dynamic and powerful kicking due to this lineage.
Brad Dunne
Brown Belt
Stan , if I may sidetrack for a moment. I was interested in your statement - "My Aikido Sensei was a fourth degree in Hapkido before he had to stop training."..................................
This is nothing more than something for my own edification. Do you know why he switched to Aikido? I'm interested to see if it had anything to do with the physical attitude of the art. Hapkido can be very hard on the body and from observations, Aikido seemed to be much softer for the partner/Uke. Thanks for any information you can provide. :asian:
This is nothing more than something for my own edification. Do you know why he switched to Aikido? I'm interested to see if it had anything to do with the physical attitude of the art. Hapkido can be very hard on the body and from observations, Aikido seemed to be much softer for the partner/Uke. Thanks for any information you can provide. :asian:
Brad,
What my sensei told me about this is that he originally, in the early 80's was very interested in studying Aikido. There were at that time no Aikido classes in his area. He found a Korean Hapkido master near by who told him that Hapkido is practically the same thing as Aikido. Apparently this was a very "Japanese" style of Hapkido (I don't know the lineage) with seiza, hakama, etc, but of course Korean terminology. Since my Sensei had previously studied Kempo, strikes were nothing new for him, and it only seemed natural that they should be incorporated into even a defensive martial art.
Eventually the school closed for business reasons and my Sensei went to check out several of the Aikido dojos that had since opened in the area. He picked up the techniques quickly, but of course started out as a white belt. He has since preferred Aikido because he thinks it to generally be more dynamic, focusing on movement rather than just application of techniques. I know very little about Hapkido, so I'm unable to comment on this. However, my first Arnis teacher also had a Hapkido background, and his locking and throwing, while very brutal and powerful, were usually statically performed.
My Sensei also likes the tradition and formality of Aikido, which he doesn't see in many American Hapkido schools.
I hope this helps.
Stan
Red Dragon Kyukido
White Belt
Basicly what I tell people as a convo starter when they ask is, Aikido is Japanise and from the sword and Hapkido is Korean and form Hand to Hand Combat. I dont have any experience in Aikido, just watched one class.
I teach Hapkido in my Dojang here in Florida. I'm only 1st Dan since April of 04, but every student who comes to me from an Aikido background pickes it up very quickly and usually like it better. Because it is hard throws and for some reason (unknown to me) people love hitting the mat HARD, including me, the harder I hit, the more fun it is for me and the more interest I get doing Demos for the community
This can be found on my web page - http://kkdma.com.content.php?article.8
and look to the left at Tenets of Hapkido
Sorry I cant copy and paste, and its to much to type here.
I teach Hapkido in my Dojang here in Florida. I'm only 1st Dan since April of 04, but every student who comes to me from an Aikido background pickes it up very quickly and usually like it better. Because it is hard throws and for some reason (unknown to me) people love hitting the mat HARD, including me, the harder I hit, the more fun it is for me and the more interest I get doing Demos for the community
This can be found on my web page - http://kkdma.com.content.php?article.8
and look to the left at Tenets of Hapkido
Sorry I cant copy and paste, and its to much to type here.
Red Dragon Kyukido
White Belt
If that link didnt work, go to my page at www.kkdma.com and look at the menu at the left.
Scott, I believe you are correct. Of course, this discussion can often get bogged down in semantics - you know, the whole "who created the term Hapkido" debate.
You are correct about Choi's students adding the kicking, meditation and other things to what Choi taught to form what most people think of as modern Hapkido.
Choi always maintained that he taught exactly what he had learned in Japan. He also maintained that it was Daito-ryu, and that his teacher was Sokaku Takeda.
Many people accept Choi's history at face value, even though to date nobody has produced any documentation that confirms Choi's story. There is no known record of Choi having trained under Takeda. Many in the JMA community consider Choi's story to be largely or completely a fabrication. There is word that soon there may be some published information out of Korea that will be based on the memoirs of Choi's daughter, and that the information will confirm Choi's story. We'll have to wait and see.
We train in a style that derives directly from what Choi taught. The head of our kwan, GM Lim Hyun Soo, was a direct student of Choi for over twenty years, including many years of private lessons. GM Lim sticks faithfully to what Choi taught him. His art is definitely based on some form of aikijujutsu. A number of our techniques, including several that are somewhat unusual, are identical to corresponding Daito-ryu techniques in their use of aiki / hapki to take the attacker's balance at the moment of contact. I base this comment on training in both Jungki Hapkido and Daito-ryu. I attended the recent three-day Daito-ryu seminar taught by Katsuyuki Kondo sensei in New Jersey, and train with a study group affiliated with Kondo's hombu. The parallels between Jungki Hapkido and Daito-ryu are obvious and undeniable.
My own belief is that Choi did not teach many of the aiki techniques that he learned in Japan to most of his students. GM Lim says that Choi would not begin to teach a student advanced techniques until the student had been with him for several years and had beed dedicated in their training. Choi seems to have placed high value on loyalty and diligence in training. I also believe that many in the JMA community who observe Hapkido somewhere and conclude that it bears no resemblance to Daito-ryu are observing forms of Hapkido that simply don't use aiki / hapki much, if at all. Furthermore, there is no shortage of JMA people who purport to speak knowledgeably about Daito-ryu, but who have never actually trained in the art (in fact, most people who train in legitimate Daito-ryu organizations never post on internet forums). You cannot describe Daito-ryu accurately without actually feeling its techniques.
Again, you are basically correct.zDom said:
Sometimes people see Daito-ryu demos and conclude that the techniques are fake. They definitely are not. People should bear in mind that most demos, regardless of the art, are choreographed and designed to be visually impressive. Also, the aerial falls that are typical of Daito-ryu are used in training to protect the attacker from the injury that would result if the technique were performed without modifications for safety. But, the purpose of Daito-ryu techniques is to maim or kill the attacker. They were designed for use in which the defender's life was under threat.
Hope this helps a bit...
Hapkid0ist
Yellow Belt
A Comparison between Korean Hap Ki Do and Japanese Aikido
-Techniques are done with small circular motions, to fast complete conclusions. Some Kicking is practiced.
Japanese Aikido
-Techniques use large, fluid circles, and wider motions, with much more graceful steps.
Korean Hapkido
-In practice, attacks are performed with sharp precision at full power.
Japanese Aikido
-Attacks tend to be softer, fluid, and stylized.
Korean Hapkido
-Use of mushim [no mind] as the YongSa faced the sword, turning defense into offense.
Japanese Aikido
-Techniques are designed to neutralize an attack and control it.
Korean Hapkido
-Techniques are designed to cripple or kill. Control is used according to the circumstances.
Japanese Aikido
-The defender blends with the attack to neutralize it without injuring the attacker.
Korean Hapkido
-Good NokBeop [break-falling] is required for the harder and completed technique.
Japanese Aikido
-Good Ukemi is necessary, but not critical. Many techniques can be used safely as uke blends with the throw.
Korean Hapkido
-Pressure point knowledge is necessary. Techniques make great use of pain. Strikes are frequent.
Japanese Aikido
-Pain is applied with restraint, in small doses. Strikes taught to some degree, but is discouraged.
Korean Hapkido
-Discipline, harmony, faithfulness and austerity are emphasized, with respect for Hapkido.
Japanese Aikido
-Emphasis on peace, love, harmony, friendship, and Aikido precepts, as taught by Morihei Ueshiba.
-Techniques use large, fluid circles, and wider motions, with much more graceful steps.
Korean Hapkido
-In practice, attacks are performed with sharp precision at full power.
Japanese Aikido
-Attacks tend to be softer, fluid, and stylized.
Korean Hapkido
-Use of mushim [no mind] as the YongSa faced the sword, turning defense into offense.
Japanese Aikido
-Techniques are designed to neutralize an attack and control it.
Korean Hapkido
-Techniques are designed to cripple or kill. Control is used according to the circumstances.
Japanese Aikido
-The defender blends with the attack to neutralize it without injuring the attacker.
Korean Hapkido
-Good NokBeop [break-falling] is required for the harder and completed technique.
Japanese Aikido
-Good Ukemi is necessary, but not critical. Many techniques can be used safely as uke blends with the throw.
Korean Hapkido
-Pressure point knowledge is necessary. Techniques make great use of pain. Strikes are frequent.
Japanese Aikido
-Pain is applied with restraint, in small doses. Strikes taught to some degree, but is discouraged.
Korean Hapkido
-Discipline, harmony, faithfulness and austerity are emphasized, with respect for Hapkido.
Japanese Aikido
-Emphasis on peace, love, harmony, friendship, and Aikido precepts, as taught by Morihei Ueshiba.
Nice and simple.
Just thought I'd toss my 2 cents worth in here as an aikido-ka. Keep in mind that the style of aikido that I study is Nihon Goshin and not an Ueshiba drivative. Many styles of the hombu style schools prefer to refer to NGA as more jutsu than do for several reasons but that's a bit aside the point here.
1. The circles and steps in aikido are only as large as they need to be. Grace is emphasized only within the limitations of balance.
2. In my style of aikido the focus in on self defense first and foremost. Attacks are performed at the speed and power with which nage is comfortable defending and uke is comfortable flying.
As your ability progresses the speed of the attack increases. We often work odd attack scenarios(sitting in a chair, behind a table) and the phrase "There is no such thing as a wrong attack." is often heard.3.Techniques are, indeed, designed to neutralize an attack and control it. That freedom to take the defense to what ever level that I deem needed is one of the things I love about the art.
4. Not injuring the attack is the "goal" of some types of aikido. The spirit of the art would dictate that one not injure another human even in self defense. Reality is another thing all together. I prefer to think of it as freedom of choice as the situation dictates.
5. Good ukemi is very much essential in aikido at the higher levels of training as many of the techniques, when done at speed, would result in joints being destroyed or necks and backs being broken if proper break falls are not employed.
6. High quality pain is metered out as needed to neutralize the attacker (not just the attack). While strikes are not focused upon it is somewhat important that the aikido-ka understand that good atemi can mean the difference between getting home and going to the hospital. I studied kenpo before making the switch to aikido and find that having the extra striking skills really helps my aikido, especially when defending against multiple attackers.
7. I really can't comment much on the final one as I'm not a student of the Ueshiba style but all of the peace, love, harmony and such is taught to a lesser degree in NGA. We focus more on balance in all things as it relates both to the spiritual as well as the physical.
I'm sorry the response here is so long. I read the thread and learned more than I ever knew about Hapkido and thought I'd add a little something from the aikido side of things. Again, NGA is a little different from the hombu styles, so I'm certainly not able to speak for any type of aikido but mine. Thanks for the knew found knowledge on what sounds like a great art.
Hapkid0ist
Yellow Belt
Do not mind the the length at all. The info in my post came from an article I got, somewhere, I can't remember. But what you have done is remind us all that all Aikido is also not the same. Everyone puts their own variations on their art, and sometimes it changes it noticably. A good example is Tomiki Aikido. I hear it is a lot more aggressive than Ushiba's Aikido.
Jeff,
Nice post.
The Daito-ryu instructor that I train under is also a shihan in NGA.
Do you mind if I ask you where in Virginia you are located? I'm a Norfolk native and I visit the Tidewater area a few times a year. If you train in a NGA school near there, I'd like to visit some time.
Thanks...
Nice post.
The Daito-ryu instructor that I train under is also a shihan in NGA.
Do you mind if I ask you where in Virginia you are located? I'm a Norfolk native and I visit the Tidewater area a few times a year. If you train in a NGA school near there, I'd like to visit some time.
Thanks...
The only shihan in NGA is Shihan Bowe. If you're training under him then you are a VERY lucky martial artist. My school is in Roanoke, Virginia. It's a four hour drive from the tidewater area. If you ever want to kill a weekend in the area just give me a PM and I'll make sure that you get some mat time at the dojo.
Agreed, the only shihan in NGA is Shihan Bowe, the next highest ranking people in the organization are Sensei's Weber and MacEwen. I know of one long time student of Shihan Bowe's that now teaches Daito Ryu, but he was never promoted to shihan.
Hi Jeff, thanks for your reply.
Oops... my mistake, sorry. The Daito-ryu instructor I train under holds a Kyoju Dairi from Mr. Bowe. He is a shihan in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai.
My apologies... I should have checked my facts before posting.
If I have an opportunity to visit the Roanoke area, I'll PM you - thanks very much for the invitation.
Take care...
Oops... my mistake, sorry. The Daito-ryu instructor I train under holds a Kyoju Dairi from Mr. Bowe. He is a shihan in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai.
My apologies... I should have checked my facts before posting.
If I have an opportunity to visit the Roanoke area, I'll PM you - thanks very much for the invitation.
Take care...
No apologies needed. The ranks and titles of the MA hierarchy can be enough to give anyone a headache. If you get the opportunity to come to the roanoke are please do give me a PM. I'd love to have you come in and play with the differences between NGA and DRAJJ. Heck, with enough lead time I may even be able to get several other students in the dojo on a weekend and we can do a mini seminar/exchange of techniques. Homebrew is on me if you can visit. I've just finished an irish stout and next up is an oktoberfest. Goes great after an afternoon of getting tossed around.
