Aikido.. The reality?

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Gerry Seymour

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Not true. People don't pick up the system. They pick up techniques from the system and add the techniques, and that's totally different than training a system. For example, a BJJ practitioner may learn Muay Thai low leg kicks and leg checks. But that's not the system that's just 2 techniques from a system.

MMA is full of fighters who have added techniques from other systems but not the entire system. There's a difference between adding a technique and training a system.
This is true, but if a given foundation (the base principles of a system) was particularly helpful in that context, there would be competitors training in that system. Of course, for competition, the learning curve matters a lot. If you and I are going to compete against each other, and start at a simlar age, etc., then the shorter learning curve has the edge. So a lot of stuff that works over time, simply isn't efficient enough (in learning hours) to be worth getting into - as a system - for competitors.

That's actually one of the things I love about MMA's development model. For someone who wants the steepest learning curve, MMA has helped drive a lot of places to figure that out.
 

drop bear

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Not true. People don't pick up the system. They pick up techniques from the system and add the techniques, and that's totally different than training a system. For example, a BJJ practitioner may learn Muay Thai low leg kicks and leg checks. But that's not the system that's just 2 techniques from a system.

MMA is full of fighters who have added techniques from other systems but not the entire system. There's a difference between adding a technique and training a system.
Is what you are saying supportable with evidence?
 

drop bear

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This is true, but if a given foundation (the base principles of a system) was particularly helpful in that context, there would be competitors training in that system. Of course, for competition, the learning curve matters a lot. If you and I are going to compete against each other, and start at a simlar age, etc., then the shorter learning curve has the edge. So a lot of stuff that works over time, simply isn't efficient enough (in learning hours) to be worth getting into - as a system - for competitors.

That's actually one of the things I love about MMA's development model. For someone who wants the steepest learning curve, MMA has helped drive a lot of places to figure that out.

I think that you are making too many assumptions.

There are MMA fighters with years of experience utilising techniques that are taught on their first day of training.

There are techniques that are statistically more successful.
 
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JowGaWolf

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This is true, but if a given foundation (the base principles of a system) was particularly helpful in that context, there would be competitors training in that system.
There are competitors training in those systems. Not every competition is an MMA competition. Full contact sports that aren't MMA

Full contact Karate
Full contact Kick boxing
Full contact Muay Thai
Full contact Lei tai
Full contact Muay Boran
Full contact Sanda
Full contact Silate
Full contact TKD

Just because we don't "see it in our backyward" doesn't mean it doesn't exists. Just becasue we don't see it with our own eyes doesn't mean it's impossible to be effective with it.
If you and I are going to compete against each other, and start at a simlar age, etc., then the shorter learning curve has the edge.
The shorter learning curve has the edge only in the context of level of experience. I say that because not everything is going to be short learning curve. Here's an example, If you learn how to punch in a shorter period than I learn how to punch and kick, then you'll have an advantage over me. But once I master the my punch and kick I will have an advantage over you.

If it was all about the shorter learning curve then we all would have stopped at basic punching and kicking. When it comes to fighting, your ability to do well in fighting is tied directly into the amount of time you spend using your techniques in active sparring, and in fighting.

CIf BJJ practitioners only train using Solo forms then they would suck butt and get dogged out every time. There is no exception to this.
 
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JowGaWolf

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There are techniques that are statistically more successful.
This is mainly due to experience level of the fighter. The more experience a fighter is the more successful they will be when using a technique. Techniques that are similar to what they already know are picked up faster. Techniques that are far from what they already know will have take longer to learn.

I'm good with sweeps so any motion that is like a sweep will be easy for me. You may not be good with sweeps and because of that any technique that uses that motion is going to take a while for you to learn. You not only have to learn the motion, but the timing, and application of it. But there are exceptions.

It took me almost a year to of teaching the other Instructor at the school that I used to teach at, on how to sweep. He already knew how to do the motion but he had a hard time with the application part. Part because he didn't try to use it often when he was sparring and the other part was due to him trying to sweep me. I wouldn't allow him to try to sweep the other students because he lacked the control needed to do a low power sweep. When he was finally able to sweep me, I fell back and he thought I was about to hit my head on a metal railing that was behind me. Had it been a full sweep, and had he not tried to slow my fall, I probably would have hit it. It was light sparring so we weren't going at it.

Sweeps are highly effective, high success rate techniques, but only if you know how to do them. You can probably sweep someone 6 or 7 times before it becomes a challenge to sweep them. The more variation of sweeps you can do the easier it will be to sweep someone, multiple times.

Most people aren't patient enough to learn sweeps or they only use one type of sweep or only one approach to sweeps, and that lowers the success rate greatly. So in this case, the issue isn't that the technique isn't good. The issue is that most people just don't want to spend the time to be good in the technique. Just like I don't want to spend the time to be good with 360 kicks.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm good with sweeps so any motion that is like a sweep will be easy for me.
I like foot sweep too. Most of the time, my intention is not trying to sweep my opponent down, but to force him to lift up his foot so all his weight is on his back leg. To attack my opponent's fully weight back leg is my goal.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Ok. So which mma fighter are you suggesting does this?
Anyone that does the "Superman punch" or jumping punch that doesn't train the Sanda or Muay Thai system.

Training one or 2 or 3 techniques from a system is not training the system.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I like foot sweep too. Most of the time, my intention is not trying to sweep my opponent down, but to force him to lift up his foot so all his weight is on his back leg. To attack my opponent's fully weight back leg is my purpose.
I do that as well. Once they lift their foot, they can no longer advance or retreat. It freezes their movement. Some times I sweep the front leg enough to where they get into the habit of lifting that front leg. This gives me access to the back leg. I guess if a someone asked me how would I sweep that back leg. I would just say "He will lift his front leg for me " lol.

If I sweep the front leg and that fails, then I just utilize the foot hook. If the foot hoot fails, then I just utilize the shin bite. If the shin bite fails and his foot is still there then I can use the foot hook. But it will never go that far. Somewhere my opponent will forget about their legs.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Once they lift their foot, they can no longer advance or retreat. It freezes their movement.
IMO, one of the best entering strategies is to use:

- foot sweep to force your opponent to lift up his leading leg.
- arm guide to force your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.

You will then be safe to do your attack.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think that you are making too many assumptions.

There are MMA fighters with years of experience utilising techniques that are taught on their first day of training.

There are techniques that are statistically more successful.
I'm not sure where that is contrary to anything I said. Can you help me out?
 

Gerry Seymour

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There are competitors training in those systems. Not every competition is an MMA competition. Full contact sports that aren't MMA

Full contact Karate
Full contact Kick boxing
Full contact Muay Thai
Full contact Lei tai
Full contact Muay Boran
Full contact Sanda
Full contact Silate
Full contact TKD

Just because we don't "see it in our backyward" doesn't mean it doesn't exists. Just becasue we don't see it with our own eyes doesn't mean it's impossible to be effective with it.

The shorter learning curve has the edge only in the context of level of experience. I say that because not everything is going to be short learning curve. Here's an example, If you learn how to punch in a shorter period than I learn how to punch and kick, then you'll have an advantage over me. But once I master the my punch and kick I will have an advantage over you.

If it was all about the shorter learning curve then we all would have stopped at basic punching and kicking. When it comes to fighting, your ability to do well in fighting is tied directly into the amount of time you spend using your techniques in active sparring, and in fighting.

CIf BJJ practitioners only train using Solo forms then they would suck butt and get dogged out every time. There is no exception to this.
I wasn't speaking only of MMA, but any inter-system competition. To me, that at least includes kickboxing and many full-contact Karate tournaments. Oh, and NAGA tournaments. Competitions that are centered around a single system (like Shotokan Aikido tournaments) don't kick off the same process.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I wasn't speaking only of MMA, but any inter-system competition. To me, that at least includes kickboxing and many full-contact Karate tournaments. Oh, and NAGA tournaments. Competitions that are centered around a single system (like Shotokan Aikido tournaments) don't kick off the same process.
Thanks for the clarification
 

Martial D

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Not true. People don't pick up the system. They pick up techniques from the system and add the techniques, and that's totally different than training a system. For example, a BJJ practitioner may learn Muay Thai low leg kicks and leg checks. But that's not the system that's just 2 techniques from a system.

MMA is full of fighters who have added techniques from other systems but not the entire system. There's a difference between adding a technique and training a system.
Ok. Since that's exactly what I said I guess we agree. When I named those styles it was in the context of those styles providing the best solutions. There is literally nothing Chinese martial arts does that isn't done better in one of those named styles. If there was, people would be using it competitively.
 

drop bear

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Anyone that does the "Superman punch" or jumping punch that doesn't train the Sanda or Muay Thai system.

Training one or 2 or 3 techniques from a system is not training the system.

And who is that?
 

Martial D

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yeah that's a bad mindset as well. It's not a good trust builder to always ask for such evidence. If everything has to be "Show me on video" then it's just best not to train under that person. If the evidence is out there, the show it share it as a reference. Just don't demand it.

If I can't do it, If I don't know anyone that can do it, then it must not be possible. Is just not a healthy mindset. A bunch of things in this world exist simply because no one else was able to do it, until someone did.
You think it is a 'healthy mindset' to just believe something without any evidence it might be true?
 

drop bear

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I'm not sure where that is contrary to anything I said. Can you help me out?

"f you and I are going to compete against each other, and start at a simlar age, etc., then the shorter learning curve has the edge. So a lot of stuff that works over time, simply isn't efficient enough (in learning hours) to be worth getting into - as a system - for competitors."

This. If the stuff works. Even over time it is still worth knowing for competitors.

It is where stuff doesn't work over time that would be the issue.
 

Steve

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Not true. People don't pick up the system. They pick up techniques from the system and add the techniques, and that's totally different than training a system. For example, a BJJ practitioner may learn Muay Thai low leg kicks and leg checks. But that's not the system that's just 2 techniques from a system.

MMA is full of fighters who have added techniques from other systems but not the entire system. There's a difference between adding a technique and training a system.
I dont think this is true, necessarily. Its about ROI. BJJ guys who want to be successful in MMA dont just pick up a few techniques from must Thai. They train the entire style. Wrestlers train all of BJJ. Etc.

Those guys are nuts. I believe They would meditate with a yogi in the snow x5 days a week if they thought it would help them gain a competitive edge.

If a professional MMAist believes training Aikido would benefit them, they will do it all the way.
 
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