Aikido has no reason to prove itself!

drop bear

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This isn't a binary thing. There's a huge range between "super tight" and "loosey goosey". My training is that grip tightens before impact, with both blunt and edged weapons, but never gets "tight as you can", because that causes other muscles to tighten. But that's about technique, and we're talking about what people are likely to do.

The rage thing, I agree on, but I don't think someone's likely to be at that distance with a knife in hand and blind raging. They could be, and I agree it's really likely they're holding tight in that situation. But absent that rage (which I included in my original comment on this), I don't think that super-tight grip he was using is likely. He was focused on trying to protect against a hard kick he knew was coming.

That is a big bunch of nobody really knows one way or another though.
 

drop bear

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I have, a few times. Talked my way out of a couple, and in the one situation where a guy pulled out a big kitchen knife, I bravely ran away. Wish I had thought of kicking it out of his hands, though. Would've been legendary.

Me too, interestingly enough.

The one where my mate was attacked with scissors was kind of an ambush.


This one

But this one where a not so much a mate went mad and attacked a couple of people with a knife had all sorts of preamble and threats.


Which the guy got off on the excuse that he was only threatening people with a knife when he slipped or something.
 
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caped crusader

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And how many knife fights have you been involved with?
well i am not going into details but one bad one was getting a knife in my hand. I made the mistake most do of just going for the blade but it was better than getting it in my gut. I survived it.
and you ? any stories to tell?
 

drop bear

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I've given what I think is good reasoning. If you have a reason why any part of that isn't reasonable, I'm interested.

It's made up. Based on experience that nobody really has.

It doesn't matter if it sounds reasonable.
 

JowGaWolf

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this sort of rubbish on youtube and tought in so called dojos gets people killed. Kicking a knife out of a hand...first of all a knife can move fast and even a slight change of angle can cause you a bad situation.
My suggestion carry a telescopic baton. A compact model.
I think kicking a knife out of someone's hand is realistic. But like with all strikes, timing is Key. Using the right technique at the right matters. There's a good time to try to kick a knife and there's a bad time. You have to use the right kick at the right time.

My experience is that most people don't hold knifes as firm as they should. Sometimes I see staffs get knocked out of peoples hands, swords fly, people drop stuff out of their hands all the time. I think the natural "Programming for holding things" is to hold an object only as tight as you need to hold it. We tend to naturally use light grips with light objects and stronger grips with heavier objects.

Trying to kick a knife out of someone's hand while they are trying to stab you is always a bad idea. Moving targets are hard to hit and it gets worse when there is a pointy object. Strikes should come when a person isn't expecting it. This holds true for trying to kick a knife
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's made up. Based on experience that nobody really has.

It doesn't matter if it sounds reasonable.
So, your point is that it may not be true, but may. I'm okay with that. It was a side note to the experiment, which was noted to be pretty situational, at best, anyway.
 

Cynik75

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I do not want to create new topic, so here some quite interesting things from Rokas and pro-MMA fighter Oliver Enkamp:
 

Cynik75

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My conclusion is: sport combat athletes are better in aikido that aikidokas themself.
 

JowGaWolf

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My conclusion is: sport combat athletes are better in aikido that aikidokas themself.
It's probably more that people who learn to fight are taught how do use techniques. Most people who take Akido seem to only show the concept of a technique. I see this in Kung Fu as well. There were a lot of things that I taught in my sparring classes that weren't taught in the regular class.

As for Rokas the more he talks the more I see just how shallow his understanding of martial arts is.

Simple concept All martial arts come from the same tree. IT uses 2 arms, two legs, and two hands along with footwork. There are only so many ways such a creature can move. Find any animal on the planet that fits that description to see similar movements.
 

JowGaWolf

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My conclusion is: sport combat athletes are better in aikido that aikidokas themself.
Having any kind of fighting experience helps in any martial arts but it's not necessary because it's something that can be gained. The major problem is that Rokas was trying to make Aikido work. When he lack any personal experience with fighting.

I don't think it's possible to teach yourself how to fight without having been in one. And I don't mean getting beat down in the streets. There's very little you can learn from being dominated.
 

drop bear

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It's probably more that people who learn to fight are taught how do use techniques. Most people who take Akido seem to only show the concept of a technique. I see this in Kung Fu as well. There were a lot of things that I taught in my sparring classes that weren't taught in the regular class.

As for Rokas the more he talks the more I see just how shallow his understanding of martial arts is.

Simple concept All martial arts come from the same tree. IT uses 2 arms, two legs, and two hands along with footwork. There are only so many ways such a creature can move. Find any animal on the planet that fits that description to see similar movements.

Not really. Because martial arts doesn't necessarily rely on human anatomy.

So yes if two people grappled or boxed they would look pretty similar. But martial artists don't necessarily do that. They do anything they want.

Martial artists can throw chi balls at each other.
 

drop bear

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I'm sorry, what? Can you provide examples of MA that don't rely on human anatomy?
Yellow bamboo.

Or any martial art where your partner just collapses.


So the throws at the end of this are quite varied because they don't rely on human anatomy.
 

JowGaWolf

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Not really. Because martial arts doesn't necessarily rely on human anatomy.

So yes if two people grappled or boxed they would look pretty similar. But martial artists don't necessarily do that. They do anything they want.

Martial artists can throw chi balls at each other.
Ha ha that's a mental thing that humans suffer from. The inability to separate fantasy from reality.
 

drop bear

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Ha ha that's a mental thing that humans suffer from. The inability to separate fantasy from reality.

It is that big a leap from compliant training.

I mean your partner is playing a role or they aren't.
 

Hanzou

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The problem is that Rokas would have to fundamentally change everything about what Aikido actually is in order to achieve his goals. What he wants Aikido to do isnt actually what Aikido is built to do. Its not about him having a shallow understanding of MA, its that he was duped into believing his martial art was more martial than it actually was.

IMO, he should stick to Bjj. Its a Jujutsu derived system already doing exactly what he wants Aikido to be able to do.
 

O'Malley

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I do not want to create new topic, so here some quite interesting things from Rokas and pro-MMA fighter Oliver Enkamp:
I have mixed feelings about the video. In itself, it's actually quite good. The topic is interesting, the production quality is great and Oliver's insights are thought-provoking.

That said, Rokas has no business publicly explaining aikido, as he does not have a good grasp of its principles. I see conceptual errors (e.g. re tenkan, moving off the line, etc.) and historical errors (the BS about Ueshiba's students being top level martial artists).
The problem is that Rokas would have to fundamentally change everything about what Aikido actually is in order to achieve his goals. What he wants Aikido to do isnt actually what Aikido is built to do. Its not about him having a shallow understanding of MA, its that he was duped into believing his martial art was more martial than it actually was.

IMO, he should stick to Bjj. Its a Jujutsu derived system already doing exactly what he wants Aikido to be able to do.
I'd be curious to hear what you think that aikido is, and what it's built to do.
 

Hanzou

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I'd be curious to hear what you think that aikido is, and what it's built to do.

It isnt built to deal with western style boxing, thats for sure. It appears to rely on countering the striking found in Kung Fu and Karate.
 
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