Aikido against a boxer

[Martial D]

Look, let's come at it from another angle.

Me, at 21 years old. Training Wing Chun since age 16… moved. Needed new place to train.

Joined a place called the world kickboxing accademy. 2 nights a week doing Mui Thai, 2 night doing bjj. The word MMA didn't exist yet, but you could call it a proto MMA gym I guess. Everything was separate though, nobody was mixing the two things, and there were other classes as well like Arnis and boxing, at different times. Anyway I digress.

First night, show up. Much harder workout than I was used to! NBD though, 21 year old me had great cardio. End of class, sparring time. Time to show these suckers the true power of Wing Chun. I was good. Fast. Chi Sau wizard and fast as lightning. At least, that's how the younger, dumber, and cockier me saw the situation.

Needless to say things didn't go as planned. I really believed in my WC, and I would have argued for it how you are arguing for aikido. No two other arts get the **** that WC and aikido do, but there is a reason for that.

Now, more than 20 years later, my WC is a huge asset to me.

But this became so only AFTER I learned how to fight.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In theory. There is no evidence Ive ever seen that is the case though. In my experience (Ive worked with and even sparred with more than a few aikido trained guys) those wristlock throws only ever work if the other guy is co-operating. Show me a counter example? Can you honestly say you've ever done it to a guy that is fully fighting back?

Yes. I have. Many times. As recently as 20 minutes ago, as a matter of fact. Nothing works every time, but wrist locks do work.

 

[now disabled]

Yes. I have. Many times. As recently as 20 minutes ago, as a matter of fact. Nothing works every time, but wrist locks do work.

Yes they do lol

 

[now disabled]

Look, let's come at it from another angle.

Me, at 21 years old. Training Wing Chun since age 16… moved. Needed new place to train.

Joined a place called the world kickboxing accademy. 2 nights a week doing Mui Thai, 2 night doing bjj. The word MMA didn't exist yet, but you could call it a proto MMA gym I guess. Everything was separate though, nobody was mixing the two things, and there were other classes as well like Arnis and boxing, at different times. Anyway I digress.

First night, show up. Much harder workout than I was used to! NBD though, 21 year old me had great cardio. End of class, sparring time. Time to show these suckers the true power of Wing Chun. I was good. Fast. Chi Sau wizard and fast as lightning. At least, that's how the younger, dumber, and cockier me saw the situation.

Needless to say things didn't go as planned. I really believed in my WC, and I would have argued for it how you are arguing for aikido. No two other arts get the **** that WC and aikido do, but there is a reason for that.

Now, more than 20 years later, my WC is a huge asset to me.

But this became so only AFTER I learned how to fight.

That is your opinion and I respect it

I don't fully agree with you but I do agree Aikido has flaws and I agree that it is not a complete all covering art but I don't agree that a person is better without it as with it.

Your focus is different to mine and that is fine

Yes I have used wrist locks and other things and they do work as DD says not all will work everytime.

 

[Ryback]

His point about training with boxers is that most Aikidoka won't punch like a boxer. If they attempt to - without training in boxing strikes - they are likely to deliver what looks (to other Aikidoka) like a boxer's punch, but isn't, and doesn't have the speed and power of an experienced boxer. That's not unique to Aikido, by any stretch. My students - even with some boxing-influenced punches in my curriculum - don't punch like boxers. Nor do most Karateka. That doesn't mean we can't adapt to that punch, but if none of us train with and against boxers, we don't really have the input we need to make those adaptations. If there's anything we've learned from MMA, it's that lots of adaptation is possible but doesn't happen until you consciously adapt with real input.

The "failure of the practitioner, not the art" is a specious argument, in my opinion. We can use that on both positive and negative sides in any argument to nullify any counter. If an MMA fighter defends himself in a mugging, it's because he's a special MMA fighter. If he fails, it's because he failed to develop his MMA skills to handle that situation. But aren't both of those actually ignoring whether the MMA system he trains in happens to be any good at developing those skills? Now change all those "MMA" to "Aikido" and you'll see the point. We can't just dismiss failures by attributing them to the practitioner, unless those failures are unusual for someone of their level. Nor can we attribute successes to the system, unless similar successes are common (relative to available incidences) for practitioners of similar skill.

This is an advantage competition systems have over SD systems, in gauging fighting ability. They have a place where they can at least say, "It tends to be effective in that sport context." Those of us who don't use competition don't have that, which IMO puts an onus upon us to look more skeptically at our own work.

His point about training with boxers is that most Aikidoka won't punch like a boxer. If they attempt to - without training in boxing strikes - they are likely to deliver what looks (to other Aikidoka) like a boxer's punch, but isn't, and doesn't have the speed and power of an experienced boxer. That's not unique to Aikido, by any stretch. My students - even with some boxing-influenced punches in my curriculum - don't punch like boxers. Nor do most Karateka. That doesn't mean we can't adapt to that punch, but if none of us train with and against boxers, we don't really have the input we need to make those adaptations. If there's anything we've learned from MMA, it's that lots of adaptation is possible but doesn't happen until you consciously adapt with real input.

The "failure of the practitioner, not the art" is a specious argument, in my opinion. We can use that on both positive and negative sides in any argument to nullify any counter. If an MMA fighter defends himself in a mugging, it's because he's a special MMA fighter. If he fails, it's because he failed to develop his MMA skills to handle that situation. But aren't both of those actually ignoring whether the MMA system he trains in happens to be any good at developing those skills? Now change all those "MMA" to "Aikido" and you'll see the point. We can't just dismiss failures by attributing them to the practitioner, unless those failures are unusual for someone of their level. Nor can we attribute successes to the system, unless similar successes are common (relative to available incidences) for practitioners of similar skill.

This is an advantage competition systems have over SD systems, in gauging fighting ability. They have a place where they can at least say, "It tends to be effective in that sport context." Those of us who don't use competition don't have that, which IMO puts an onus upon us to look more skeptically at our own work.

Well I see your point clearly but on the other hand if the majority of aikidoka train in such a way that would lead them to failure against a boxer it doesn't mean that the art itself doesn't provide the means and techniques to potentially beat a boxer. But you have to study those aspects of the art.
They have always been there but they are mostly neglected...
Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example. Or can defend themselves against an ushiro Kubi shime choke technique or a fast gedan (low level) Mae geri kick...

 

[Ryback]

If you are doing aikido training that employs real resistance and full on sparring with fully resisting opponents, then never leave that school, because you have found a unicorn.

However, if you are throwing around compliant Aki's (or..getting them to throw themselves as it were) ala traditional aikido and think that will help you much in actual fighting, you have been mislead.

Sparring is not a tool for learning a martial art at least not in my opinion.
As for resistance, believe me every time we use more resistance in the attacks it's easier to control the Uke, what is difficult is to control a relaxed fast Uke who instead of resisting he is trying to counter you, if that's what you mean then, yeah we do that.
As for Uke jumping around in ukemi on their own... Well if my technique doesn't work I find my Uke still standing attacking me or choking me with his other hand. It has happened many times in the past and it's still happening some time because even after being 20 years in Aikido there are 2people in the Dojo more experienced than me and we hunt each other like hell.
But anyway, this is not about me, Aikido has that potential if anyone would train seriously, with practical application in mind he can make it work!

 

[pdg]

Have you ever studied Aikido?? Or is your experience only what you think you understand watching YouTube videos?
I don't like choreographed techniques and you don't have to study with boxers in order to be effective... Every attacker is unique, there are differences in the training people may have, their size, strength, agility... So, do you have to train with every person all around the world?
In Martial arts you are sharpening your skills and by studying your art, not everyone else's... And if it's done right, it should work. Any failure is not a failure of the art, it's a personal failure of the practitioner and that's as far as we can prove.
Even if I would spar with you and lost that wouldn't mean that Aikido doesn't work against your training, only that my Aikido skills are not enough to beat you...

Ok, so first off I feel I have to explain the concept of sparring...

It's not about win or lose, it's not about which art is better - it's about working together to find your own way.

My last sparring night, probably 10 partners - did I win? Did I lose? Nobody kept score... Because it's not about winning or losing.

Now to the 'no need to train with a boxer' - ok, if you say so.

I do TKD and I do kickboxing. In the kickboxing group there are a few that came from a pure boxing background.

I can go up against a taekwondoin "doing boxing moves" and not feel challenged at all. What they're doing looks like boxing moves and I can say my defences work against boxing.

Now I do the same against one of the boxing guys and what happens? I get hit much more. It's totally different.

Now get a kickboxer to "do TKD moves". Another kickboxer defends and says what they do works against TKD. Then they use those defences against me and get kicked in the head. It's totally different.

So, I can sharpen my TKD against other taekwondoin as much as I like, but until I go against someone with actual skill in another art there's really no way I can say if it will work.

I can say that it should work in theory, because the shape looks similar.

In this, I'm not 'blaming' the art, but my interpretation of it. And that I can't develop my interpretation without live testing.


And I haven't studied aikido, I have very little exposure to it. But there are parts of it that look superficially very similar to certain applications of some TKD techniques - I'd like to work with someone who has actually studied these things so that I can develop my own interpretation.

 

[now disabled]

And I haven't studied aikido, I have very little exposure to it. But there are parts of it that look superficially very similar to certain applications of some TKD techniques - I'd like to work with someone who has actually studied these things so that I can develop my own interpretation.

That is actually a martial approach and a rounded opinion

 

[now disabled]

That said, i have no evidence that aikido armed works (no evidence it doesnt, but have never seen it effective for weapons). Just pointi ng out a system that does show the difference.

Imo the weapons that Aikido uses are not a complete discipline ie it is not Kenjustsu nor Jojutsu it is a way to understand how some of the principles work or where there came from.

Put an Aikidoka up against a practitioner of Kenjutsu and he will most likely lose in sword skills as the Aikidoka is not a swordsman.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The term "full resisting opponent" can be a 2 edges sword.

If the moment that you try to use hip throw on your opponent, the moment that he sits down to the ground, You can wrestle with him for 20 years, you still cannot develop your hip throw. What's good if your opponent can not help you to develop MA skill?

A full resisting opponent can help you to develop combo (use one move to set up next move). He won't be able to help you to develop the first move.

Agreed, assuming "full resisting" is something they don't know how to turn off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@gpseymour
I have to say I'm impressed with your openness about this topic. That's not to say you have given me any other impression over time with your posts. It's just rare to find people who can see their own systems short comings and also try to address them.

Remember that Aikido (the style created by Ueshiba) isn't my style, but my primary style (NGA) is a cousin, and shares some of the problems. If NGA is taught with too much focus on aiki, it has all the issues I point out. I am much more punch-happy than most NGA instructors and practitioners, because I see these issues. In some ways I see a very real possibility of NGA (mainline) getting to this same point in a generation or two. @drop bear and i have had some lively discussions about some of the issues with trying to pull of full-aiki techniques against balanced fighters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

May have found the trick to this by the way. I was sparring a 16 year old the other day who just lost his cool and justs started trying to take my head off.

So I was recieving strikes that were 100% speed and intensity without the weight behind them to do any real damage.

So you could do that and see if you can blend with shots coming at you fast.

Those, in fact, are easier to blend with than a controlled, powerful punch. If there's no weight behind them, it takes a bunch of the aiki techniques off the table, but there are enough left to work with. Good focus and control is what best limits the availability of Aikido techniques (and many of the NGA ones, too).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, no issues;I'm just being straight. Have you ever worked with aikido guys? How familiar are you exactly with what they do, what it is, or the philosophy behind it? You won't find any violence in an aikido studio because that runs purely against the grain of what aikido is.

It's a suplimental system for people that ALREADY know how to fight, something their O'Sensei made quite clear.

In that regard I've seen it 'work', but those that have only aikido are honestly worse off than someone that is completely untrained. There is mountains of evidence to support this.

I don't agree with the last statement, unless you're talking about having a false perception of ability.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do bear in mind that if you fire up the engine as you say and fully apply things like Kotegaeshi and do a full on full force irimi nage or fully applied hiji waza then things will break lol

I am not in any way calling your skills in to doubt however if I (and I can't now lol) fully fired up Kotegaeshi then your wrist would break lol

That may be why you think that it all "soft" so to speak and compliant as if the uke doesn't take it then he /she gets hurt

It is and always has been a problem of how to "cover all " in training and there is no answer really that fits all.

Ok going back in time (way back) they could test out things lol... find a criminal or a person of low class and do the "business" but those days are long gone so we have what we have and will always struggle to agree on the how to

The challenge isn't putting full force into the application, but having a partner who tries to stop you from applying. There's no technique I know of that cannot be countered if you see it coming. A good Aikidoka should be as effective at stopping Aikido techniques from being performed on them as they are at doing Aikido technqiues. Actually, they should be better at counters, because they're easier to do.

 

[pdg]

That is actually a martial approach and a rounded opinion

It's the only way imo.

Let's say I take a few TKD moves and do them by the book - hooking block, low hook kick, elbow, low block. Against one person I'd be relying on them being at the right range, at the right time or nothing works.

Now let's ignore the book application (blocks might not be blocks, strikes might not be strikes) and dig a bit, do them quickly enough so it's pretty much one fluid movement.

Another person could look at that and give it a name...

Say, hip throw.

But wait, a hip throw "isn't TKD"...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In theory. There is no evidence Ive ever seen that is the case though. In my experience (Ive worked with and even sparred with more than a few aikido trained guys) those wristlock throws only ever work if the other guy is co-operating. Show me a counter example? Can you honestly say you've ever done it to a guy that is fully fighting back?

Ever wonder why it's never happened in a cage? Oh yes, wristlocks are perfectly legal in MMA. The entire Aikido syllabus is.( the 'small joint manipulation' foul in mma only applies to two or less fingers, wrists are fair game) Yet nobody uses it. Do you not wonder why that might be?

Again, I'm not saying aikido is 'useless' persay, but you seem to have some untested beliefs at play here.

Someone recently posted a video (Drop Bear, I think) that showed a kotegaeshi done in a fight by an Aikidoka. They do work, though they aren't as prone to breaking things as they feel like in practice. Some joint throws have a pretty high potential for destruction, though, if the person being thrown doesn't give in to them. We have one that's taught as a throw, but really isn't - the breakfall is actually an escape from the lock, so it would be unlikely to end as a throw "on the street".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. I have. Many times. As recently as 20 minutes ago, as a matter of fact. Nothing works every time, but wrist locks do work.

I'm curious DD, do you use wristlock throws, too?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I see your point clearly but on the other hand if the majority of aikidoka train in such a way that would lead them to failure against a boxer it doesn't mean that the art itself doesn't provide the means and techniques to potentially beat a boxer. But you have to study those aspects of the art.
They have always been there but they are mostly neglected...
Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example. Or can defend themselves against an ushiro Kubi shime choke technique or a fast gedan (low level) Mae geri kick...

I'll argue that if they are there, they aren't going to be there much longer. What isn't trained in a system gets lost. If only a few places teach good strikes, then students by and large aren't training against good strikes. Give that a couple of generations (literally, two is usually sufficient) without remediation and all the students of that third generation will have ineffective strikes and techniques that generally fail against effective strikes.

An easy solution is a bit of cross-training with friends from other arts. If 5% of Aikidoka did this, and sparred while doing so, then brought the information they gained back to their personal Aikido training, that would reverse the trend. It might take only the same 2 generations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sparring is not a tool for learning a martial art at least not in my opinion.
As for resistance, believe me every time we use more resistance in the attacks it's easier to control the Uke, what is difficult is to control a relaxed fast Uke who instead of resisting he is trying to counter you, if that's what you mean then, yeah we do that.
As for Uke jumping around in ukemi on their own... Well if my technique doesn't work I find my Uke still standing attacking me or choking me with his other hand. It has happened many times in the past and it's still happening some time because even after being 20 years in Aikido there are 2people in the Dojo more experienced than me and we hunt each other like hell.
But anyway, this is not about me, Aikido has that potential if anyone would train seriously, with practical application in mind he can make it work!

Counters are resistance. Resistance does not mean the same thing as tension. Resistance is the thing you need in your training, and relaxation and counters are part of how we resist aiki techniques. As is controlling our weight transfers and keeping center and structure. Have your partner do those things and find out what causes problems. That's training with resistance.

 

[pdg]

It's the only way imo.

Let's say I take a few TKD moves and do them by the book - hooking block, low hook kick, elbow, low block. Against one person I'd be relying on them being at the right range, at the right time or nothing works.

Now let's ignore the book application (blocks might not be blocks, strikes might not be strikes) and dig a bit, do them quickly enough so it's pretty much one fluid movement.

Another person could look at that and give it a name...

Say, hip throw.

But wait, a hip throw "isn't TKD"...

I've just noticed I've blended some threads

I'd like to do more reinterpretation of application in class.

Rigidly sticking to the dogma of "move A is for situation Y" is an issue in a lot of TMA training.

Style (aikido) against style (boxing) is worthwhile.


Oh, and there's no such thing as MMA - it's all just TKD/WC/karate/judo/aikido done a bit differently