Aiki Jiu Jitsu

gpseymour

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It isn't. The relevant legalities here would involve trademark, but I don't believe "Aikido" is trademarked in the U.S.. Perhaps Mr. Toyota was able to intimidate dojo owners who weren't familiar with trademark law.
For most folks, it's easier (and perhaps cheaper) to change a sign than to deal with a lawyer.

Given that the Dai-Nippon Buttoku-kai designated "Aikido" as a name for arts of that type, I can't imagine it would have been easy to pursue a trademark case. More likely, he was challenging their use of the name to claim something they didn't have (either a link to their hombu, or rank to teach).
 

Tony Dismukes

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For most folks, it's easier (and perhaps cheaper) to change a sign than to deal with a lawyer.

Given that the Dai-Nippon Buttoku-kai designated "Aikido" as a name for arts of that type, I can't imagine it would have been easy to pursue a trademark case. More likely, he was challenging their use of the name to claim something they didn't have (either a link to their hombu, or rank to teach).
Even if a single person or organization held a trademark on the name "Aikido" in Japan, it wouldn't give them any standing to pursue a case against someone using the name in the U.S. unless they also obtained a trademark on the name here.
 

hoshin1600

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since sensei Toyoda passed many years ago now i cant ask him about it. but my impression was that there was no legal standing for the use of the name, but we are talking many many years ago. it was most likely a scare tactic. aikido was so rare here in the states and such a small knit group everyone knew who was legit and who was not, who was using the name with no back round at all but rather fraudulently making claims for profit. not unlike BJJ has been. Toyoda was not about to go around rolling with people and there was no internet to call people out on YouTube. but my over all point was that fraudulent people would then change the name to aikijujustu thus muddying the waters
 

frank raud

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I've taken a few seminars with Pascal Serei in his Ninta-ryu aikijujuttsu. In November, I intend to attend a seminar with one of Alain Floquet's top students in Aikibudo. Are the names appropriate? Don't know. But I used to do seminars with Micheal Lamonica when he was with Hakko-ryu. Now he is Hakko Densho. Sometimes it's just a name.
 

pgsmith

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I really hate to be a stickler, but someone who does koryu arts there is a big difference in feeling vs how a gendai art is done. It really isn't fair or accurate to Vince or other people looking for legit Aikijujutsu to think that Yoshinkai is in fact Aikijujutsu.
The name that is used has no real bearing at all on what is being taught. The biggest differences that I have found between koryu and most gendai arts is in the training methodology, not necessarily the end results.

In my opinion, the names aren’t terribly important in identifying an art, except where they clearly misidentify it as a different art. “Yoshinkan Aikijujutsu” is just a name, used to differentiate one branch of Shioda’s teaching. It doesn’t lead people to believe anything inaccurate. You or me insisting they use a name that (perhaps incorrectly) names it the same as another branch of Shioda’s teaching doesn’t seem helpful.
I agree.

When you make definitive statements arguing ownership of a term, expect there to be others who may disagree with you.
This is very true. Most especially when discussing Japanese arts. The Japanese language is very much context driven, and the words used for any given situation will change depending on a great many factors. Those of European descent tend to try and assign hard definitions to Japanese words and phrases, but that leads to arguments and misunderstanding. Far better to simply go on and tend to one's own training.

I've taken a few seminars with Pascal Serei in his Ninta-ryu aikijujuttsu. In November, I intend to attend a seminar with one of Alain Floquet's top students in Aikibudo. Are the names appropriate? Don't know. But I used to do seminars with Micheal Lamonica when he was with Hakko-ryu. Now he is Hakko Densho. Sometimes it's just a name.
Yep, I agree completely.
 

Encho

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Hi pgsmith,
Unfortunately a name has a particular meaning behind it, you really can't call someone doing sword and call it aikijujutsu.
 

the8th_light

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Hi Encho,

You're correct in principle, but unfortunately the description of a practice really cannot be protected legally in Japan, or abroad, and I feel your pain.

Really, anyone can call their practice X-do and Y-jutsu/jitsu, and Z-aikijujutsu/jujitsu/jiujitsu or anything else.

It's up to each organization to legally protect their own name, usually with trademark.

In Japan, things are a bit more strict in this regard. Elsewhere you never know what you'll see.

For instance, Shogen Okabayashi. A Daitoryu Takumakai student who also studied with Tokimune Takeda, decided to stop using the "Daito-ryu" moniker when he decided to part and go by himself. What started as Hakuhokai is now his Hakuhoryu. And he's great if you get a chance!

Likewise, Yasuhiro Irie, a longtime student of Hakkoryu, left to form Kokodo Jujutsu. While his background was Hakkoryu, he's made it all his own. And he's got some offshoots too!

Devon
 

pgsmith

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Unfortunately a name has a particular meaning behind it, you really can't call someone doing sword and call it aikijujutsu.
While this is true to some degree, it is also the Japanese language we are talking about here. You can call someone doing a sword art iaido, battodo, or battojutsu, and all be talking about the exact same art. I have heard this very thing after practice in the bar in Japan speaking with Japanese instructors about Toyama ryu. Japanese is very context driven, and you cannot make definitive statements assigning a single definition to anything Japanese. It will only lead to frustration because there will always be exceptions. Aikijujutsu is a descriptive, not a name. Therefore, it can be applied to any number of named arts if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making.
 

Encho

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Hi pgsmith,
Can you please give an example of the word aikijujutsu being used as a description for something other than an art that practices aikijujutsu?
I personally have never heard anyone in USA or Japan use the word aikido or aikijujutsu as a description for any other thing maybe taisabaki or aiki being applied to different arts. From what I recall takeda called his art jujutsu and not aikijujutsu which later on he called it in reference to his art.
 

pgsmith

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Can you please give an example of the word aikijujutsu being used as a description for something other than an art that practices aikijujutsu?
I personally have never heard anyone in USA or Japan use the word aikido or aikijujutsu as a description for any other thing maybe taisabaki or aiki being applied to different arts. From what I recall takeda called his art jujutsu and not aikijujutsu which later on he called it in reference to his art.

I never said that it was used as a descriptive for an art that doesn't practice it in some form, you seem to be reading something other than what I have written. Perhaps you could explain to me how I have said what you appear to have heard?

Aikijujutsu went through the same bloom in the late 2000's as jujutsu did in the 1990's, and ninjutsu did in the 1980's. When they got popular, you started seeing a lot of 'arts' crop up with that in their name to take advantage of the popularity. Therefore, there are now quite a number of arts that use the word 'aikijujutsu' somewhere in their descriptive, just as there were a lot of 'jujutsu' schools that sprang up in the 1990's, and 'ninjutsu' schools that appeared in the 1980's. I could not tell you if they employ actual aiki principles without going and experiencing them for myself. Therefore, I am uncomfortable with someone else saying that's not what they do without having direct experience with them. Why do you feel you are qualified to do so?
 

Encho

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Hi Pgsmith
Aikijujutsu is a descriptive, not a name. Therefore, it can be applied to any number of named arts if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making.
One would get the impression that since Aikijujutsu is a descriptive word as you say then it can apply to any number of named arts(Karate for example) if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making. Taken in to what you said before about Sword name and Japanese context would would conclude given the impression you meant it this way.

I do practice Daito ryu Aikijujutsu among other Koryu arts so I will leave it at that in regard to the rest of your post.
 

gpseymour

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I do practice Daito ryu Aikijujutsu among other Koryu arts so I will leave it at that in regard to the rest of your post.
Here's the issue, to me, Encho. If you said, "I practice Aikijujutsu", I'd have to ask, "Is it Daito-ryu?" You included Daito-ryu as an identifier because it's part of the name. Without it, it's a reference to a category or class, not a specific art/style. If someone attaches "Aikijujutsu" to another name, nobody is confused that it's Daito-ryu.
 

Encho

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Hi Gpseymour

Aikijujutsu the term from my understanding was coined by Takeda. So there really is no other Aikijujutsu or I should say no other authentic Aikijujutsu if it does have roots tracing back to Daito ryu. There actually is/was another Daito ryu so that may be why Takeda changed the name it could have been a suggestion from Ueshiba, I would have to look into Stanley's book to find that.

The term Aikijutsu, Aiki no jutsu, Aiki are more generic terms and has been used in different koryu to describe things.
 

pgsmith

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One would get the impression that since Aikijujutsu is a descriptive word as you say then it can apply to any number of named arts(Karate for example) if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making. Taken in to what you said before about Sword name and Japanese context would would conclude given the impression you meant it this way.
I'm sorry, I assumed that you would have a better grasp of the English language. I apologize if my ideas were too advanced for you to keep up with. Calling karate aikijujutsu would be incredibly stupid don't you think?

Aikijujutsu the term from my understanding was coined by Takeda. So there really is no other Aikijujutsu or I should say no other authentic Aikijujutsu if it does have roots tracing back to Daito ryu. There actually is/was another Daito ryu so that may be why Takeda changed the name it could have been a suggestion from Ueshiba, I would have to look into Stanley's book to find that

Ah, you're one of those rabid "aikijujutsu is ours and only ours" Daito ryu folks. :) I have met a few of you in the past. To me, that's akin to British soccer fans getting up in arms about American football because football was first called that in England, and American football is nothing like real football! I'll not debate it with you further as it's a bit of a pointless debate.

Cheers!
 

Encho

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Hi pgsmith,
When communicating it is a two way road if the sender sends out a message that may read differently especially when prior context was used then the person receiving may take the prior context to be on same topic. Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.

As stated before, aikijujutsu was uniquely coined by takeda and there is or no other koryu school using aikijujutsu at least to my knowledge. If other arts are using the term, fine no trademark or copyright on the word, it doesn't affect my training or what I know.
 
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vince1

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Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido. Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school.

There is nothing called "Traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu" I have no idea what rolling techniques refers to. Aikijujutsu is like adding Yang to Yang until it become Yin, to understand Aikijujutsu is to understand the sword are my advice to you if you are interested in learning this.


Master Carrothers has made it very clear that what he teaches is a complete Aki Jiu Jitsu system and that it is not Aikido. In fact his nephew that lives a few hours away is a practitioner of Aikido. He has trained with his nephew on many occasions and was shocked in finding out how incomplete the Aikido system really is compared to what he teaches. He was able to demonstrate to me some of the techniques his nephew had learned and then add the missing parts/technique.
 

Encho

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Master Carrothers has made it very clear that what he teaches is a complete Aki Jiu Jitsu system and that it is not Aikido. In fact his nephew that lives a few hours away is a practitioner of Aikido. He has trained with his nephew on many occasions and was shocked in finding out how incomplete the Aikido system really is compared to what he teaches. He was able to demonstrate to me some of the techniques his nephew had learned and then add the missing parts/technique.
Dear Vince1,
If he is teaching based on Yoshinkan as it comes through Shioda Gozo then he is teaching a version of Aikido and even calls it Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.

If you do a google search of Shioda and Yoshinkan you will find Aikido. It may be a harder version of Aikido it may have been added things but it is not authentic Aikijujutsu. The only true Aikijujutsu comes through the Daito ryu line unless someone can point another school that is not some gendai or associated with Daito ryu such as an offshoot using the term. As it stands from my recollection of Stanley Pranin in his book that Takeda created the term Aikijujutsu.
 

gpseymour

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Dear Vince1,
If he is teaching based on Yoshinkan as it comes through Shioda Gozo then he is teaching a version of Aikido and even calls it Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.

If you do a google search of Shioda and Yoshinkan you will find Aikido. It may be a harder version of Aikido it may have been added things but it is not authentic Aikijujutsu. The only true Aikijujutsu comes through the Daito ryu line unless someone can point another school that is not some gendai or associated with Daito ryu such as an offshoot using the term. As it stands from my recollection of Stanley Pranin in his book that Takeda created the term Aikijujutsu.
Ueshiba was authorized to teach Daito-ryu, and did so before he changed it to become what was later known as Aikido. It is entirely possible that this branch of Shioda's teaching is descended from that more directly, rather than from what we'd recognize as Aikido.
 

Encho

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Ueshiba was authorized to teach Daito-ryu, and did so before he changed it to become what was later known as Aikido. It is entirely possible that this branch of Shioda's teaching is descended from that more directly, rather than from what we'd recognize as Aikido.
Shioda calls his art Aikido so his art is Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.
If want to be more correct to say what was taught was Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Ueshiba Aikibudo as that was what was being taught during that transition period.
The feel of Yoshinkan doesn't have a Daito ryu feel to it and has more of an Aikido feel to it at least when I have visited dojo's this same thing also goes to Aikibujutsu, Tomiki, Tenshin, etc etc.
 

gpseymour

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Shioda calls his art Aikido so his art is Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.
If want to be more correct to say what was taught was Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Ueshiba Aikibudo as that was what was being taught during that transition period.
The feel of Yoshinkan doesn't have a Daito ryu feel to it and has more of an Aikido feel to it at least when I have visited dojo's this same thing also goes to Aikibujutsu, Tomiki, Tenshin, etc etc.
I don't know what goes on in that particular line. Do you? I know what I've seen of Yoshinkan has some similarities to other lines of Ueshiba's art, but contains a lot I don't see in most of the others (Tomiki is a partial exception).

You're really tied up on them not using the "Aikijujutsu" term, even though they are, in fact, descended from Daito-ryu. I'm not sure why, but you're determined to have it exactly your way, with no room for anyone else's thoughts nor any discussion. You just keep coming back to the same points, even when they don't seem to apply.
 
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