Aiki Jiu Jitsu

vince1

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I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.

So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.

Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?
 

gpseymour

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I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.

So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.

Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?
Shioda's art (I've heard various names for it - most often, I've heard it called Yoshinkan Aikido) is derived mainly (not exclusively) from Ueshiba's early development and teaching of what became Aikido (IIRC, it was mostly called Aiki Jujutsu around the time Shioda started training with him). It uses many of the same techniques and principles as Ueshiba's art, as seen through the other lineages. But I've been told it uses harder locks and more striking. I've been told NGA (my primary art) looks like Yoshinkan, so I suspect Yoshinkan also works a bit closer at times than most Aikido, and will use direct lines. It probably also doesn't rest entirely on "aiki" approaches, though that impression is entirely derived from comments about its similarity to NGA.

I've seen some video of Shioda when he was reasonably young, and he committed his weight into powering techniques far more than I see commonly in Ueshiba's Aikido.
 
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vince1

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Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.

I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the differences.

The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.
 

gpseymour

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Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.

I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the differences.

The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.
That last bit is because of the "aiki" (which is difficult to define, and if you ask 10 informed people for definitions, you'll probably get at least a dozen responses).

As a note, to avoid confusion, there are two uses of "Aikido". One (the most commonly recognized) is as the name of the art founded by Ueshiba. The other is the grouping created in the early 1940's (IIRC - going from memory here) by the Dai-Nippon Butokku-kai. The latter appears to predate the former usage. Under the DNBK usage, Shioda's art/style (and its derivations) are all "Aikido", as is Nihon Goshin Aikido (not derived from Ueshiba's art - a cousin with a shared ancestor). So, when Corrothers says it is not "Aikido", he is referring (almost certainly) to Ueshiba's art.
 
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vince1

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Yes you are correct and Carrothers made mention of Ueshiba's art.
 

ShortBridge

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I spent some time in something similar, I can't say how closely related. Methaphorically, it's "the one that got away" for me. Take advantage of the opportunity you have and go as far and as deep as you can.
 
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vince1

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I spent some time in something similar, I can't say how closely related. Methaphorically, it's "the one that got away" for me. Take advantage of the opportunity you have and go as far and as deep as you can.

Yes that's how I am looking at it as well. Master Carrothers is in his mid seventies and is a wealth of knowledge . I am training in a private setting with him and one of his students that has been training with him for 15 years.
 

ShortBridge

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Perfect.

Regardless of what you may do someday, when opportunities like this present themselves, you just have to go with them.
 

Encho

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I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.

So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.

Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?
Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido. Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school.
Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.

I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the differences.

The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.
There is nothing called "Traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu" I have no idea what rolling techniques refers to. Aikijujutsu is like adding Yang to Yang until it become Yin, to understand Aikijujutsu is to understand the sword are my advice to you if you are interested in learning this.
 

gpseymour

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Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido. Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school.
Daito-ryu is not the only Aiki-oriented Jujutsu. And early in his teaching, Ueshiba called what he taught Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu. In fact, early in his teaching, he taught Daito-ryu.
 

Encho

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Recently learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Many consider Aikijujutsu to be superior to Jujutsu.
In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher
 

Encho

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Daito-ryu is not the only Aiki-oriented Jujutsu. And early in his teaching, Ueshiba called what he taught Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu. In fact, early in his teaching, he taught Daito-ryu.
Dear Gpseymour, There are other ryuha that may have used Aiki in their scrolls/name however most if not all these schools either no longer exist, are not taught outside of Japan. Ueshiba had a Menkyo in Daito ryu however, watching him and other Daito ryu teachers even those from Hakko ryu there is a huge difference.
As I have said before most people using Aikijujutsu are students of Aikido teachers and are not doing Aikijujutsu.
 

gpseymour

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In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher
In fact, there’s a story that Kano (who apparently didn’t want Judo to become the sport-oriented art it became) once said to Ueahiba, “This is what Judo could have been.”
 

gpseymour

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Dear Gpseymour, There are other ryuha that may have used Aiki in their scrolls/name however most if not all these schools either no longer exist, are not taught outside of Japan. Ueshiba had a Menkyo in Daito ryu however, watching him and other Daito ryu teachers even those from Hakko ryu there is a huge difference.
As I have said before most people using Aikijujutsu are students of Aikido teachers and are not doing Aikijujutsu.
None of that changes the legitimacy of Shioda calling the what he taught Aikijujutsu. Nor, really, anyone else using the term.
 

Encho

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In fact, there’s a story that Kano (who apparently didn’t want Judo to become the sport-oriented art it became) once said to Ueahiba, “This is what Judo could have been.”
Perhaps, I don't know I do not practice Gendai arts.
 

Encho

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None of that changes the legitimacy of Shioda calling the what he taught Aikijujutsu. Nor, really, anyone else using the term.
Gpseymour, what he was learning was during a transition from Daito ryu Aikijujutsu to Aikibudo to Aikido. Shioda refers to what he does as Yoshinkan AIKIDO.
 

gpseymour

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Gpseymour, what he was learning was during a transition from Daito ryu Aikijujutsu to Aikibudo to Aikido. Shioda refers to what he does as Yoshinkan AIKIDO.
And there’s nothing wrong with differentiating Shioda’s early teaching as Aikijujutsu. (Unless we want to be sticklers about -jutsu versus -do, but that argument has little merit outside Japan, but maybe some inside.)
 

Encho

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And there’s nothing wrong with differentiating Shioda’s early teaching as Aikijujutsu. (Unless we want to be sticklers about -jutsu versus -do, but that argument has little merit outside Japan, but maybe some inside.)
Which goes back to the original statement:
"Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido." I really hate to be a stickler, but someone who does koryu arts there is a big difference in feeling vs how a gendai art is done. It really isn't fair or accurate to Vince or other people looking for legit Aikijujutsu to think that Yoshinkai is in fact Aikijujutsu.
 
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