There has been a lot of discussion about the appropriateness of children wearing black belts. But what about adults who wear poom belts? How common is that, how advisable is that? For those who think adults wearing poom belts is ok, do you or your instructor also allow children to wear black belts?
Adults wearing poom belts
- Thread starter puunui
- Start date
A friend of mine returned to Taekwondo same time I did, at seventeen. She was a 1st Poom, a rank she earned at 11, and I was a 1st keup black stripe. She wore her poom belt for about 2 weeks before a solid color black belt she ordered arrived. I think it was more practicality than anything else, our instructor was ok with it. He was relatively laid back anyway.
1st Geups in our dojang (whether adult or junior) wear poom belts. Poom and Dan holders all wear black belts.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Why would an adult in a KKW school wear a poom belt? As a probationary BB rank?
I have seen other schools, like ATA, use a red/black belt, but that represents an official rank in their system and is not related to age.
Edit: Just saw the other posts above... Ignore my question.
I have seen other schools, like ATA, use a red/black belt, but that represents an official rank in their system and is not related to age.
Edit: Just saw the other posts above... Ignore my question.
You've reminded me of something. My 1st geup belt had a black stripe all the way through it and looked like a Poom belt, kind of. I have forgotten what the stripe signified but I do know I started wearing one at orange belt, just after yellow. 7th keup I guess. Something tells me we used it to denote either competitors, demo team members, or "black belt club" members, rather than any specific rank. I had specific doboks for all of those purposes too. Somewhat unrelated story...
For me, I'd much prefer a black belt student who is the appropriate age wears a black belt rather than a poom belt. I also really wish circumstances had allowed me to earn a poom belt, but why have regrets.
Aren't Combat Hapkido 1st Keups designated by a half red and half black belt? Anyone know?
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
They earned the rank as kid and returned as adult?
Not seeing big problem here, considering Puuni seems to think it's a lesser belt.
The ITA briefly used the half and half belt as the probationary Black. but it seems not to have been thought out well, since they never indicated which side to put up when putting it on (and since they always specify everything...).
It also looked too much like the 2nd red belt with a black stripe through it. it was quickly replaced by he oreo belt (black with white stripe)
Not seeing big problem here, considering Puuni seems to think it's a lesser belt.
The ITA briefly used the half and half belt as the probationary Black. but it seems not to have been thought out well, since they never indicated which side to put up when putting it on (and since they always specify everything...).
It also looked too much like the 2nd red belt with a black stripe through it. it was quickly replaced by he oreo belt (black with white stripe)
rlobrecht
Brown Belt
Our school (independent chang-hon system) uses poom as black belt candidate. You've learned and tested on all the material for 1st Dan, however you haven't tested it all at once. From that point until you test for black, you really learn nothing new.
Yes, we also have children black belts.
Rick
Yes, we also have children black belts.
Rick
Say an adult who started as an adult and one of the belts before black belt is the poom belt in the school's curriculum.
I never said or even inferred that a poom belt is a lesser belt. You are reading too much into it.
Yes. I seldom see schools use the poom/black belt for their intended purpose. Many schools use the poom belt as a probationary (for lack of a better word) black belt or 1 geup and a full black belt for dan holders regardless of age.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
For a person who wears a v-neck dobok which is based on Won, Bang, Gak, practices Poomsae which is based on Won, Bang, Gak, it is philosophically incorrect to have adults wear Poom belts, and for children to wear black belts. But anything goes in USA, and usually due to lack of understanding how integrated the Won, Bang, Gak theory is into every aspect of Taekwondo.
The official KTA/Kukkiwon belt groupings are three. Geup, Poom and Dan in accord with the samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak.
The official belt colors of the KTA, and eventually the Kukkiwon were the colors of the 5 basic elements. White, Yellow, Blue, Red and Black.
Yellow, Blue and Red are the colors found in the Samtaegeuk symbol of Korea and is from the same Samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak (heaven, earth and human)
White and Black represent the Um Yang (Yin Yang) and for Taekwondoin, represents the idea of "beginning/completion.
Wearing the Poom belt upside down, according to the Won, Bang Gak theory it is based on, is like wearing dobok pants in place of the top, wearing the top for pants, and tying the belt from the top of your head to your crotch.
The official KTA/Kukkiwon belt groupings are three. Geup, Poom and Dan in accord with the samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak.
The official belt colors of the KTA, and eventually the Kukkiwon were the colors of the 5 basic elements. White, Yellow, Blue, Red and Black.
Yellow, Blue and Red are the colors found in the Samtaegeuk symbol of Korea and is from the same Samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak (heaven, earth and human)
White and Black represent the Um Yang (Yin Yang) and for Taekwondoin, represents the idea of "beginning/completion.
Wearing the Poom belt upside down, according to the Won, Bang Gak theory it is based on, is like wearing dobok pants in place of the top, wearing the top for pants, and tying the belt from the top of your head to your crotch.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Oh, White Belt is "no geup"
The three color belts, Yellow, Blue and Red are divided into 3 geups based on won, bang, gak. Those geups are:
Yellow 9, 8 and 7.
Blue 6, 5, and 4
Red 3, 2 and 1
All conform to the won, bang, gak. Remember, the Hanbok is based on won,bang, gak. The dobok is from the Hanbok.
The won, bang, gak is likely what the new Dan designation are that we saw in the new WTF Poomsae uniforms, and likely the new Kukkiwon Poomsae uniform, where you had Dan divided as follows:
1,2,and 3 - master
4,5, and 6 - instructor master
7, 8 and 9 - grandmaster
Poom is separate. 1-4
The three color belts, Yellow, Blue and Red are divided into 3 geups based on won, bang, gak. Those geups are:
Yellow 9, 8 and 7.
Blue 6, 5, and 4
Red 3, 2 and 1
All conform to the won, bang, gak. Remember, the Hanbok is based on won,bang, gak. The dobok is from the Hanbok.
The won, bang, gak is likely what the new Dan designation are that we saw in the new WTF Poomsae uniforms, and likely the new Kukkiwon Poomsae uniform, where you had Dan divided as follows:
1,2,and 3 - master
4,5, and 6 - instructor master
7, 8 and 9 - grandmaster
Poom is separate. 1-4
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granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
if it's what the school does, why bother question?
No, you implied, time and time again.
Implying that the wearer cannot possibly have earned a true BB you are implying that the Poom is of lesser rank than a BB.
And I still don't get the question.
It's a strip of fabric, designed to keep the jacket closed and the pants up.
There is no single formula about the color if said cloth, and yes, there are more games in town than the KKW.
People let children wear black belts. It's only fair to ask the reverse, adults wearing poom belts.
An adult wearing a poom belt generally means in the US that they are not at the black belt level. Generally I when I see adults wearing poom belts it is for ranks such as senior red or bodan level, not dan level.
Others understand the question, looking at their responses.
If that is how it is at your school, then ok.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Wrong, there is a single formula about the color(s) of said cloth. See my post above. Kukkiwon would be the game in question, since they are the one's who began using the Poom belt.
Here the rule is black down, red up. Not sure if that's just us or if that's standard.
1. In our dojang, the poom belt is used for poom dan holders (those persons who have satisfied the physical requirements for black belt, but have not yet reached a necessary age of maturity)only.
2. The red is always worn on top, as the students "Black Belt Maturity" has not yet overtaken the caution of the red warning.
3. All adult Dan holders wear Black Belts as a visual indicator between Poom and Dan Ranks.
4. Senior red belts were red belts with stripes to indicate the "senior status"
Personally, I believe there is no uniformity outside of organizations (and only limited uniformity within organizations, at the dojang level). Also, I believe independent schools are free to be independent, but should clearly state that so as to not add to the confusion.
One tree grew many branches, spread her seeds, and created a forest.
TAE-KWON!
Bateman
2. The red is always worn on top, as the students "Black Belt Maturity" has not yet overtaken the caution of the red warning.
3. All adult Dan holders wear Black Belts as a visual indicator between Poom and Dan Ranks.
4. Senior red belts were red belts with stripes to indicate the "senior status"
Personally, I believe there is no uniformity outside of organizations (and only limited uniformity within organizations, at the dojang level). Also, I believe independent schools are free to be independent, but should clearly state that so as to not add to the confusion.
One tree grew many branches, spread her seeds, and created a forest.
TAE-KWON!
Bateman
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
what does a poom belt look like?
mastercole
Master Black Belt
According to Kukkiwon, yes. When wearing the poom v-neck dobok, the black side of the poom belt always is on top. This matches the collar of the poom v-neck dobok which also has the black side on top. The WTF appears to be changing this however with the new competition Poomsae "poom" Y-neck uniform. However it will remain the same for the poom v-neck dobok.
The red and black combination comes from the 5 colors of the Oh-haeng or 5 elements. The black represents the winter, the death of emotion (ignorance) or emptiness. Red is like the child, Fire, summer, trust and envy to still overcome.
Dan and Poom rank are separate in that Poom is for children who continue on after geup training. Adults can not be ranked as "Poom." Dan is for adults who continue on after geup. Children can not be ranked as "Dan."
Poom means "grade" as far as poom jung is concerned. Dan means "step" as far as Dan jung is concerned.
Poom is an old way for the Korean court to line up officials by grade or rank. Dan is from the Japanese game of GO.
Here is a photo of children training in Korea from the Kukkiwon Magazing "Taekwondo People"
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