A thought on a forum rule, based in logic.

Juany118

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Okay we know there are differences between Main Land China and Hong Kong, largely YM, Lineages. We also know from past experience that (apparently) few if any YM 1st Gen students teach precisely the same WC/VT. This clearly extends to the next generation because of some disagreements we have seen.

So can we stop with the "truth" of a system junk? I am actually a little embarrassed at this point. I still have an interest in the other TMAs I have studied and there lie differences, but I have yet to see on these forums, or anywhere else the "so and so said this absolute according to my Sifu...So there" junk, even in Aikido where there can be arguments over purpose.

If other forums can dodge the dogma driven truth junk WC practitioners can right? So can we just chat and if there is disagree say "my Sifu said this is different..." With some detail as to why, vs "Well no, because I was told no."

The former can lead to growth, the later only to stagnation. Just a thought in the wee hours since I am a Vampire for the next 4 months due to the CBA.
 

Hazardi172

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If this is related to the discussion about trapping range, then I think we only discussed that Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung changed what WSL taught them. This is not anything to argue about because both openly state that they have done so. There is no counter claim to make, it is simply a fact.
 

wingchun100

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It is a problem that has been going on ever since I started wing chun in 1995. There has always been talk about how the Sifu I had at the time had to be careful what he said due to "politics." I just don't get it, honestly.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It is a problem that has been going on ever since I started wing chun in 1995. There has always been talk about how the Sifu I had at the time had to be careful what he said due to "politics." I just don't get it, honestly.
This happens in many associations, and is not restricted to Wing Chun. The larger the association, IME, the more likely the politics (though ego among the higher ranks is probably a bigger factor).
 

KPM

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Watch out! I suggested a "forum rule"....the thread was locked and I ended up temporarily banned! ;)
 

wingchun100

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This happens in many associations, and is not restricted to Wing Chun. The larger the association, IME, the more likely the politics (though ego among the higher ranks is probably a bigger factor).

It's even bigger when someone thinks they are a superstar because they have released a few videos and made the cover of INSIDE KUNG FU a couple times. That happened to my first Sifu. He got into what he described a "chi sao fight" with someone who used to be a pretty well-known name in Wing Chun. From what I could tell, the guy got mad because my teacher was able to land more blows/feel more holes in Mr. Famou Man's structure.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's even bigger when someone thinks they are a superstar because they have released a few videos and made the cover of INSIDE KUNG FU a couple times. That happened to my first Sifu. He got into what he described a "chi sao fight" with someone who used to be a pretty well-known name in Wing Chun. From what I could tell, the guy got mad because my teacher was able to land more blows/feel more holes in Mr. Famou Man's structure.
Been there, sort of. I made the mistake of mentioning a higher-ranking instructor in an internet post once and referring to his length of training. He wasn't happy, as he perceived it as me passing some sort of judgment. I saw it as a reference to fact, as well as a reference to how much time he had left to get even better (at the time, he was probably the most skilled martial artist I'd ever worked with, so I certainly wasn't judging him as lacking).
 

Kung Fu Wang

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- YM brought WC from Chna to Hong Kong. Nobody else taught WC in Hong Kong. YM was the only WC teacher in Hong Kong. YM modified his WC in Hong Kong. YM's students modified WC in US.

- My teacher Chang Tung Sheng brought SC from China to Taiwan. Nobody else taught SC in Taiwan. Chang was the only SC teacher in Taiwan. Chang modified his SC in Taiwan. The SC 24 forms that was taught in Taiwan is completely different from the one taught in China. Chang's students modified SC in US. Even the basic "hip throw" was changed into "waist lift". Also kick and punch was added in and SC is changed into CC (Combat SC). Some ground skill was also added in within some US local branches.

This is very common in CMA. It's called "evolution".
 
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Danny T

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How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.
 

wingchun100

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How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.

Right, but it is when someone states their opinion while saying everyone else is brain dead for thinking differently that we run into trouble.
 

Hazardi172

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How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.

I agree, good attitude
 

Danny T

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Right, but it is when someone states their opinion while saying everyone else is brain dead for thinking differently that we run into trouble.
Them opining that everyone else is brain dead only causes trouble 'if' & 'when' another takes it as an affront and then argues with them.
 

JowGaWolf

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Solution: Learn Jow Ga Kung Fu and everyone student and almost every Sifu will accept that you are different. lol. Unless the conversation is who brought Jow Ga to the U.S. But any other topic is discussed with brotherhood.
 

geezer

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A few random reflections:

My current instructor is a religious fundamentalist and creationist. I am not. He believes that the Christian Bible is the literal word of God, that there is an absolute right and wrong, and so forth. By contrast, I am a seeker of knowledge but understand that many conceptions of "truth" are relative. I believe that however much we may learn from others, that ultimately, it is up to each of us to work out our own "truth".

Not surprisingly, we each bring our personal worldviews to our pursuit of the martial arts. He teaches with a very rigid, authoritarian perspective. I experiment and question. Fortunately, he is not my sifu, but actually my si-dei (younger brother) under our first sifu. I train under him because he is very skilled, intelligent and insightful. I'm not sure why he puts up with me. Maybe it's the association dues and membership fees I send his way? Who knows. Anyway, he hasn't promoted me in rank in the nearly ten years I have belonged to his association! Unfortunately that hasn't changed my perspective, since I honestly don't give a hoot about ranks. But it is worth pointing out that free-thinking comes at a cost when dealing with an authoritarian perspective.

So getting back to the OP-- we encounter some of those authoritarian, "true-believer" perspectives here. They may be intelligent, and have some excellent ideas that we can learn from. And, they are so certain in their beliefs that they will learn nothing from us ...except that we are stubborn, ignorant and blind to their truth. Ok, there's nothing you can do about that. KPM take note: Resistance is futile!

Arguing endlessly with "true believers" accomplishes nothing. I will simply post to disagree with those guys, state my case for the benefit of any third parties who may be following the thread, and let it go ...and perhaps take some small consolation in the fact that I occasionally learn something from them, while they will, of their own choice, never learn anything from me! ;)

One more thing... haven't you all noticed how the liveliest threads are the ones in which you have a few of those stubbornly opinionated types who just keep on posting? I guess everybody contributes in their own way. :D
 
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Juany118

Juany118

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How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.
This is largely my point. I have no issues with differences of opinion. Through debate we learn things. Someone may even be steadfast in a specific belief based on articulable facts. There I can agree to disagree.

Where I think facts stops and dogma begins. When the "debate" devolves to "my Sifu said this is WC, your opinion is different so that isn't WC at all."

I am literally referring to that kind of extreme.
 
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Juany118

Juany118

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borg.jpg


@geezer this popped immediately into my head with your post lol. It also made me hink of how lucky I feel to have my Sifu and to learn on occasion from his Sifu. I'll provide an example.

My Sifu teaches us both WC and Kali as you know but in the school he tries to keep them separate. Thing is, as an example, once he feels you know he WC technique to deal with something, if it works better for you to use the Kali method, he is cool with that. Example, people throw rounds at my head I use an elbow shield and drive on. He admittedly lets me get away with a little bit more than others because of my past and current job. He knows I don't mind taking a hit if my experiment fails lol.

Onto his Sifu. Went to a Seminar a at his school with my Sifu. He started the seminar by saying "I will show you some ways to set things up. If you have what you think is a better way show me. Make sure you can show me it is equal or better, but I want to see it, there is no gospel in a fight."

So he shows a set up that leads to an arm lock for the application of a common peroneal knee strike. Now my Sifu shows a neck restraint method that accomplishes the same immobilization and his Sifu says "that works too". During the drills I use both methods to feel it out for myself. Well one of the "in house" junior Sifu's of the Master holding the seminar comes over and when he sees the neck restraint says "That is not what the Master Demonstrated." I responded with "well my Sifu used it, the Master said that works to, it works better for me because I have used similar restraints in real fights." He huffed and walked away. The more I see things here, the more I am thankful that I have my Sifu and he has his.
 

wayfaring

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Okay we know there are differences between Main Land China and Hong Kong, largely YM, Lineages. We also know from past experience that (apparently) few if any YM 1st Gen students teach precisely the same WC/VT. This clearly extends to the next generation because of some disagreements we have seen.

So can we stop with the "truth" of a system junk? I am actually a little embarrassed at this point. I still have an interest in the other TMAs I have studied and there lie differences, but I have yet to see on these forums, or anywhere else the "so and so said this absolute according to my Sifu...So there" junk, even in Aikido where there can be arguments over purpose.

If other forums can dodge the dogma driven truth junk WC practitioners can right? So can we just chat and if there is disagree say "my Sifu said this is different..." With some detail as to why, vs "Well no, because I was told no."

The former can lead to growth, the later only to stagnation. Just a thought in the wee hours since I am a Vampire for the next 4 months due to the CBA.

I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC. Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man. Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings. Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.

Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends. People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.

Because it is so different for the last decade we have had to deal with the "truth of the system" discussion in the public. We feel we have a very unique, complete system not like others around, and in some areas we find explanations where there previously were none. To us there is a unique system, and a very very unique head of the family lineage. But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally. For me, yes.

With comparisons, sifu Gee always tells us "don't say you're #1, but don't ever let someone call you #2".

I'm still working on that.
 

geezer

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But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally. For me, yes.

I agree totally. Some on this forum are obsessed with having "the best" WC/VT/WT. Ultimately there is only what is best for each of us personally. :)
 

bully

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Im pretty lucky in that I dont really have a lineage....or maybe not I suppose as I'm not very good at the art.

During my travels I have seen many types of WC/VT or whatever you want to call it.

I spent nearly 2 months training 6 hours per day in China doing an unknown (to me) Foshan lineage....I enjoyed every minute of it for its similarities and differences to Ip Man WC, some very "Northern" type stuff in the forms and also snake etc but also the Ip Man stuff was there too.

Like many of you I have seen and traded hands (I'm not very good really) with other lineages and took from it what I could.

I spent a day doing Kamon (UK based) Wing Chun with Kevin Chan at his house...and does he know how stuff!! again its different but seems to work.

Spent a day at a Gary Lam seminar in London and again lots to take on board, met some serious WC hitters there and I think like everything these guys would rise to the like cream to the surface if they did Thai Boxing/Karate/TKD/Boxing/MMA/BJJ etc etc...Im just glad they chose WC as their art.

One of the most interesting was a certain family Wing Chun (which will remain nameless as I dont want to upset the chap (from here) who showed it to me) which I briefly saw and was shown by a member from Martial Talk in South Thailand. Some big differences but again also you can see where Ip Man etc and other came from or evolved into. He was/is a phenomenal martial artist and I'm sorry I lost touch with him.

A guy who passed through where I live trained with Chris Chan in San Fran and showed us some of that, it totally blew everything I had learnt out of the water...I disagreed with some but also liked how certain drills were done and took it on board.

I took in everything I could and feel that whilst I am not the best WC guy by far....I haven't trained in a good 2 years due to personal stuff but am trying again now...I really dont get emotional and argumentative about the many differences, life is too short and some things suit some and not others.

Take everything you can from differences, it might change you or you might need it one day.

My final thought, Ip Man modified WC so why can it still not be modified or did he have copyright on that?
 

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