A curious outlook on self-defense learning

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm wondering what people think about the view expressed in this video. In a way I can see where they are coming from in the fact that someone who gets into a lot of fights probably isn't the right person to learn from, but at the same time you want someone with some experience in an actual fight. What I will say is there is a big difference between street fighting and self defense. In street fighting you are wanting to win by beating up your opponent, whereas in self defense you are looking to escape the situation with the minimal amount of injury and risk to yourself.

What do you guys think?

 

[drop bear]

Most street fighters will tell you it is a pretty crap exercise as well.

But it is a crap exercise that sometimes needs to be done.

As far as street fighting and self defence you can be switching from one to the other pretty quickly or even doing both at once. So it helps to have both tools.

Even avoiding a fight. It helps your ability to use deescalation when you can take the guy should it come to that. Fast talking while you are scared you are about to get beat up is actually pretty hard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

lol and I thought I was bad with the lectures... is that what I sound like to other people? lol Jake is entertaining but he makes a valid points. I'm not a fan of the Zen aspect of Martial Arts. I like martial arts specifically because it's a fighting system that teaches me how to efficiently hurt someone. If I have be in a fight that I can't avoid then I want to end it as efficiently and as effectively as possible. Being a healthy lifestyle, staying fit, and stress free are "side effects" or additional benefits that come from training. When I train kung fu I train to hurt someone and I want to be good at it. Being good at hurting someone doesn't mean that I'm a tyrant walking down the street to cause misery. It's quite the opposite.

The better and more efficient I get at being able to hurt people the less I actually want to hurt someone and the more fighting becomes an option than a requirement. My growth and maturity comes from what I decide to do with my ability to hurt someone. I can choose to use my "power" to harm or I can use my "power" to help.

The funny thing about learning how to fight, almost all teachers want you to take the emotion out of fighting and learn how to not fight with anger or fear. I didn't think about it until now but if you have the ability to fight without anger or fear then you probably won't get into many fights at all, being that anger and fear are good triggers for getting into fights.

 

[crazydiamond]

I do agree with the video with sparing being important and sparing in different styles important. We do some sparing using different styles. We also occasionally simulate (kind krav like) street or compact situations. To me bring some chaos, unpredictability and fear help you prepare.

Sometimes self defense does involve "beating up" someone to remove them as a threat. Perhaps the difference that a street fight my deliver a beating beyond being no threat - that is in a self dense mode if your knock them down or hurt them enough to stop their attack on you - you don't keep hurting them. Street fights involving rage can go beyond that.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

I'm wondering what people think about the view expressed in this video. In a way I can see where they are coming from in the fact that someone who gets into a lot of fights probably isn't the right person to learn from, but at the same time you want someone with some experience in an actual fight. What I will say is there is a big difference between street fighting and self defense. In street fighting you are wanting to win by beating up your opponent, whereas in self defense you are looking to escape the situation with the minimal amount of injury and risk to yourself.

What do you guys think?

First, IMO a "street fight" just means 'an actual, real-world fight between hostiles which may or may not involve weapons and may or may not be consensual and is NOT for sport or entertainment and is NOT governed by rules, nor does it have referees or official oversight'.
Secondly, "self defense" just means 'protecting oneself or others from physical harm from hostiles by use of physical and/or non-physical means.' Self defense includes situational awareness, learning to read body language and facial expressions, and learning how to negotiate.

With that in mind, an experienced street fighter might be a very good person to learn fighting skills from. A person who loves to fight and has been in many avoidable fights might not be the best person to learn self defense from.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

lol and I thought I was bad with the lectures... is that what I sound like to other people? lol Jake is entertaining but he makes a valid points. I'm not a fan of the Zen aspect of Martial Arts. I like martial arts specifically because it's a fighting system that teaches me how to efficiently hurt someone. If I have be in a fight that I can't avoid then I want to end it as efficiently and as effectively as possible. Being a healthy lifestyle, staying fit, and stress free are "side effects" or additional benefits that come from training. When I train kung fu I train to hurt someone and I want to be good at it. Being good at hurting someone doesn't mean that I'm a tyrant walking down the street to cause misery. It's quite the opposite.

The better and more efficient I get at being able to hurt people the less I actually want to hurt someone and the more fighting becomes an option than a requirement. My growth and maturity comes from what I decide to do with my ability to hurt someone. I can choose to use my "power" to harm or I can use my "power" to help.

The funny thing about learning how to fight, almost all teachers want you to take the emotion out of fighting and learn how to not fight with anger or fear. I didn't think about it until now but if you have the ability to fight without anger or fear then you probably won't get into many fights at all, being that anger and fear are good triggers for getting into fights.

The thing is you can't really train angry because you will just get demolished. There are elements of training that are hard and are upsetting and it takes mental composure to deal with that.

Basically if someone has you in mount and are punching you in the face. They are not going to let you out just because you are having a sook.

 

[drop bear]

By the way. Street fighters may not be the best people to have dinner time conversations with. But if you are in a fight. You would like the fact that any guy backing you up wants to be there.

 

[hoshin1600]

my first thought is...what is your and Jake's definition of a street fighter and who is learning from a street fighter? i will admit i didnt watch more than half of the video (oral diarrhea drives me insane). to me a street fighter implies someone without any training or skill but engages in a street fights and thus thinks hes a bad *** and declares himself to be a street fighter for the sake of ego and to hide his insecurities. it is possible that Jake Mace is referring to back yard fighters like Kimbo and Dada 5000 but i dont think so. the entire premise is ludicrous. street fighters as far as i know dont teach.."street fighting" and those that do i will assume are fake. no one is going to learn street fighting like this because there is no system or curriculum to be learnt.
i believe the entire video is a false premise that Jake made up in order to battle his youtube back lash from people saying what he is doing and teaching is nonsense for self defense. so he uses the stance that "dont learn from a street fighter ,,,learn from me , a qualified and experienced martial arts instructor" the video reeks of insecurity of actual fighting ability on Jakes part.
Jake did say "if you are getting into more than one or two street fights in your life time there is something wrong" while this may be true it sounds like he has been reading or watching Rory Miller on youtube. its Rory that says that a lot, someone with actual credentials.

What I will say is there is a big difference between street fighting and self defense. In street fighting you are wanting to win by beating up your opponent, whereas in self defense you are looking to escape the situation with the minimal amount of injury and risk to yourself.

agreed.

just watched more of the video and i think i threw up in my mouth just a little.
4:05 to 4:44 ( you should be training chinese kung fu and tai chi to have a better relationship. to get in better shape. to be more relaxed and productive at work. to be a better parent to your kids. to have goals. maybe you have goals and kung fu and tai chi is one of the ways that will enable you to achive your goals......i think that kung fu and tai chi... is one of the mechanisms and one of the tools we can all use to enhance our level of humanity)

ok Jake you've given your opinion,,now here is one of mine..

oh geezus listen to the ding bat here.
Jake you posted a video on street fighting then you turn it around and tell us that we are training for the wrong reasons. maybe some of us are interested in actually learning how to defend ourselves, ever think of that? people have decided to spend their money and their time to learn a self defense system or style not dance, not yoga. we didnt sign up for a Anthony Robbins seminar so "stifle yourself".
this video did nothing more than show me "Never learn self defense from Jake Mace"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

lol and I thought I was bad with the lectures... is that what I sound like to other people? lol Jake is entertaining but he makes a valid points. I'm not a fan of the Zen aspect of Martial Arts. I like martial arts specifically because it's a fighting system that teaches me how to efficiently hurt someone. If I have be in a fight that I can't avoid then I want to end it as efficiently and as effectively as possible. Being a healthy lifestyle, staying fit, and stress free are "side effects" or additional benefits that come from training. When I train kung fu I train to hurt someone and I want to be good at it. Being good at hurting someone doesn't mean that I'm a tyrant walking down the street to cause misery. It's quite the opposite.

The better and more efficient I get at being able to hurt people the less I actually want to hurt someone and the more fighting becomes an option than a requirement. My growth and maturity comes from what I decide to do with my ability to hurt someone. I can choose to use my "power" to harm or I can use my "power" to help.

The funny thing about learning how to fight, almost all teachers want you to take the emotion out of fighting and learn how to not fight with anger or fear. I didn't think about it until now but if you have the ability to fight without anger or fear then you probably won't get into many fights at all, being that anger and fear are good triggers for getting into fights.

The "taking the emotion out of it" is a factor in emotional intelligence - what I refer to as "emotional maturity". It's important in all aspects of life, and one of the areas that martial arts often helps with (by accident/as a side effect).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First, IMO a "street fight" just means 'an actual, real-world fight between hostiles which may or may not involve weapons and may or may not be consensual and is NOT for sport or entertainment and is NOT governed by rules, nor does it have referees or official oversight'.
Secondly, "self defense" just means 'protecting oneself or others from physical harm from hostiles by use of physical and/or non-physical means.' Self defense includes situational awareness, learning to read body language and facial expressions, and learning how to negotiate.

With that in mind, an experienced street fighter might be a very good person to learn fighting skills from. A person who loves to fight and has been in many avoidable fights might not be the best person to learn self defense from.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

The primary difference (in my vernacular) between a "street fight" and "defending yourself on the street" is in how it starts, and where you end. Someone experienced in street fights is not good for learning either of those from, because they likely get into fights from a lack of self-control. Their techniques are likely quite valid once the situation turns physical. They may not be good at teaching the starting point of an attack, if they are mostly engaging in fights where they see it coming (they helped escalate it).

The other areas you cite as part of "self-defense" is, of course, how we avoid the physical confrontation. That's arguably the most important skill in SD.

 

[Paul_D]

but at the same time you want someone with some experience in an actual fight. ?

You are confusing fighting with self defence.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

You are confusing fighting with self defence.

There is some overlap between the 2. While most self-defense is based on non-physical action (i.e. awareness, negotiation, etc) if that fails then there will be a physical aspect to it, and that physical aspect could very well take the form of a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By the way. Street fighters may not be the best people to have dinner time conversations with. But if you are in a fight. You would like the fact that any guy backing you up wants to be there.

Unless he REALLY wants to be there. I have no interest in folks who really enjoy fighting like that, and honestly don't want them out there with me.

 

[Paul_D]

There is some overlap between the 2. While most self-defense is based on non-physical action (i.e. awareness, negotiation, etc) if that fails then there will be a physical aspect to it, and that physical aspect could very well take the form of a fight.

Yes, but the "fighting" aspect of self protection will not look like sparring/street fighting/two martial artist testing their skill. Hence you don’t learn self protection from a street fighter.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but the "fighting" aspect of self protection will not look like sparring/street fighting/two martial artist testing their skill. Hence you don’t learn self protection from a street fighter.

Why?

 

[Red Sun]

Eh... i think this is apples and oranges. OFC you can learn how to fight from a street fighter. But, it's unlikely an untrained street fighter will be able to teach you a 'style'. And a trained one would probably be better at doing than teaching.

 

[mograph]

Is it possible that in some tough neighborhoods, street fights are more a matter of course?

I'm not talking about two idiots trying to prove their manhood, I'm talking about a guy in a bar in a tough neighborhood, who can't talk down a drunken bully, so he has to defend himself?

If so, is it possible that the guy can teach us a bit about how drunken bullies behave, for example, when they mean it, when they don't?

 

[drop bear]

Unless he REALLY wants to be there. I have no interest in folks who really enjoy fighting like that, and honestly don't want them out there with me.

If they are not complete maniacs I have no issues if it gets them up in the morning. There is a difference between enjoying fighting and being unprofessional.

Disappearing under a table and letting someone get bashed is pretty unforgivable even though morally higher.

 

[drop bear]

Is it possible that in some tough neighborhoods, street fights are more a matter of course?

I'm not talking about two idiots trying to prove their manhood, I'm talking about a guy in a bar in a tough neighborhood, who can't talk down a drunken bully, so he has to defend himself?

If so, is it possible that the guy can teach us a bit about how drunken bullies behave, for example, when they mean it, when they don't?

Brazil has been pretty famous for having that sort of environment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If they are not complete maniacs I have no issues if it gets them up in the morning. There is a difference between enjoying fighting and being unprofessional.

Disappearing under a table and letting someone get bashed is pretty unforgivable even though morally higher.

I agree with your closing statement. I disagree with your opening. I do have a problem if someone gets up in the morning looking forward to getting into a brawl. They have a cog loose somewhere, and I don't want to be around that. It's different if they get up looking forward to a competition. I don't enjoy that - can never look forward to causing injury to someone unless they clearly deserve it - but that person isn't unbalanced, and I'm okay having them around if a fight happens. If they've trained really hard for competition, they are probably "harder" than I am, so a good partner in a tight spot.