A complete Wing Chun system

[zuti car]

Often we hear someone has or hasn't a complete system . My question is , what is a complete wing chun system? If we look at Yip Man's lineage there aren't two Yip's students , even his sons, who have same curriculum . Sometime system's contents are so different that is hard to believe they all came from same source (teacher) . Now, what is a criteria for complete system, what is a minimum technical or any other content that make some system complete ? How can we determine if system is complete or not , this is especially important for people who are starting their wing chun practice?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what is a complete wing chun system?

There exist no complete system on this planet. A wife who

- is pretty,
- is rich,
- is well educated,
- came from royal family,
- cooks well,
- keeps house clean,
- loves you to death,
- is willing to take a bullet for you,
- is good on bed,

just doesn't exist.

You will have 2 choices here. You can try to find a:

1. "rich wife". For the rest of your life, you just eat out everyday, give up your sex life, and ...
2. No 1 wife who is pretty, a No 2 wife who is rich, a No 3 wife who is ...

 

[Drose427]

Often we hear someone has or hasn't a complete system . My question is , what is a complete wing chun system? If we look at Yip Man's lineage there isn't two Yip's students , even his sons, who have same curriculum . Sometime system's contents are so different that is hard to believe they all came from same source (teacher) . Now, what is a criteria for complete system, what is a minimum technical or any other content that make some system complete ? How can we determine if system is complete or not , this is especially important for people who are starting their wing chun practice?

This is where things get iffy.

Wrestling was a part of Okinawan Karate training, I believe it was Wados founder who even took the time to make videos of it.

Now because of that, and Jujustu's influence, Karate has a myriad of grappling moves actively taught both in and out of kata.

Nearly all of which can be drilled and practiced in a BJJ/wrestling environment and if you look enough, you can find Okinawan karate schools that do many of those drills and some free wrestling. But, it isnt the point of focus or done nearly as much as striking. Generally, what is is based around getting back to your feet with a lock or choke if that becomes impossible.

These trickled into the many of the korean systems as well, the locks, chokes, etc we do from our lineage to JJ/karate can be done from both standing/rolling.

But like most schools, we drill the application itself with a resisting opponent whose already in control of, rather than spending an hour or two live wrestling.

BJJ is essentially the opposite. It's grappling came from the same place as ours, but the style was taken in the opposite direction.

Strikes to set up grappling vs grappling to set up strikes.

Now, what would make a complete system?

Simply having the tools for both, while favoring one?

or

Regularly, training both the point of equilibrium?

In theory, the karate guy can take 30 minuted of each class 7 days a week to focus on Wrestling/grappling practice. But his grappling still wont be as refined or well versed as the BJJ guy rolling 7 days a week for 2 hours. Just as the BJJ guy striking for 30 minutes at the end of class isnt going to out strike the Karate guy doing the opposite.

Personally, I dont consider simply having the tools the criteria. For the exact reason above. For me to consider it "complete" they would have to be rounded off evenly, and no one style can do that.

 

[dlcox]

Often we hear someone has or hasn't a complete system . My question is , what is a complete wing chun system? If we look at Yip Man's lineage there aren't two Yip's students , even his sons, who have same curriculum . Sometime system's contents are so different that is hard to believe they all came from same source (teacher) . Now, what is a criteria for complete system, what is a minimum technical or any other content that make some system complete ? How can we determine if system is complete or not , this is especially important for people who are starting their wing chun practice?

The art is complete if it satisfies all your criteria for studying it.

 

[Vajramusti]

The art is complete if it satisfies all your criteria for studying it.

 

[Vajramusti]

Yup. For me the wing chun that I do is a complete system. Continuing my wing chun development is quite satisfactory. Although I know things about other systems- I do not need to import and mix systems.
Ip Man's students varied widely in their time spent with Ip man hence the differe
nces in their understanding of Ip Man's wing chun.
Ip Man's wing chun is based on some key principles which are "natural" simple but profound and allows people to adjust and face quite a wide range of challenges.
Fist work, palm work, finger work, elbow work, shoulder work, feet, knees,throws,stability, mobility, from all sorts of angles, ground work if unavoidable. dealing with strikers, grapplers, kickers-it's all there.

 

[Mephisto]

The art is complete if it satisfies all your criteria for studying it.

I disagree. Generally when instructor says "this is a complete system" he means the art trains in all major technical Areas. Striking and grappling/groundfighting being the two most basic other areas might be combatives/self defense, weapons, and healing arts. Even each of those categories have several sub areas like weapons = stick, blade, projectile, gun, ect. You are giving the term "complete" a more philosophical and personal meaning, that's fine but that's not gonna be in line with how the term is actually used, especially when it comes to marketing and advertising martial arts. But I'm also willing to accept that the saying "complete martial art" is bs anyways and unusually just a selling point.

Yup. For me the wing chun that I do is a complete system. Continuing my wing chun development is quite satisfactory. Although I know things about other systems- I do not need to import and mix systems.
Ip Man's students varied widely in their time spent with Ip man hence the differe
nces in their understanding of Ip Man's wing chun.
Ip Man's wing chun is based on some key principles which are "natural" simple but profound and allows people to adjust and face quite a wide range of challenges.
Fist work, palm work, finger work, elbow work, shoulder work, feet, knees,throws,stability, mobility, from all sorts of angles, ground work if unavoidable. dealing with strikers, grapplers, kickers-it's all there.

Again I'm gonna disagree here, WC is not a complete system. WC may have some weapons work and an answer to grappling (in the minds of some) but it does not have ground fighting and thus is not complete, in addition to other factors WC is missing that a complete art would have. This is the problem with people claiming their system is complete. They think their system has an answer for everything and infer that it is not necessary to cross train.

Many martial arts and students consider their system complete and some are closer than others but few if any systems actually are. If you truly train all technical areas id question your ability in any one area unless you train 40+ hours a week. Every area you train takes away time you could be training in another area thus decreasing your skill. I think it's better for a system to know its specialty and seek to develop that specialty rather than claim to know it all. Boxers don't claim to be a complete system but some will claim to have the best punches and they may very well be right. You have to have a realistic grasp of your system and know what it will teach you. If your answer is that your system has everything you're probably lying to yourself.

 

[Kwan Sau]

You all make some good points for sure. Another good topic of discussion by Zuti.
I'll just throw this into the mix: how would one know one has learned the complete system/art? ;-)
For example, Yip Man folks learn the three forms, wooden man, pole, knives (the big six) and they think (or are told) that they have 'completed the system'. How would they know their instructor has passed on all to them? Simple answer: you don't.
I agree with the opinions of Kung Fu Wang, dlcox, and Vajramusti. I do however disagree somewhat with Mephisto's stance on this. If one restrains their WC and it's core ideas, concepts, and key principles...then yes...your expression of your version of WC might be somewhat limited; however, taken with a grain of salt...or a more flexible interpretation...those same core ideas, concepts, and key principles make the art much broader in a full spectrum way. Just my .02
Great discussion Gents!

 

[zuti car]

Can a system be complete without grappling ? We have majority of traditional systems without grappling or some rudimentary grappling and I think there is a reason that. Grappling became popular after it's success in MMA matches but that is a specific setting with specific conditions where grappling arts can dominate , but like I said that is very specific situation and I think a good starting point for another discussion . My question was specifically directed to wing chun , what makes one wing chun system complete ? Some systems have 3 empty hand forms, dummy , pole and knives. Some don't have empty hand forms at all . Some have more than a dozen empty hand forms and several dummy and weapon forms . Some hae san sik and forms. Some have more weapons than usual pole and knives. So , what is a criteria to determine what system is complete ?

 

[Kwan Sau]

system
http://www.martialtalk.com/javascript:void(0)
NOUN

1. a set of connected things or parts forming a complex whole, in particular.
2. a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method:

Zuti, you are correct in the examples you listed about other WC 'systems' having different components. I guess, so long as a WC practitioner can use what he has learned in a variety of contexts and situations (without grafting on components from non-WC arts) then can we say that person has learned / is expressing the entire system(?)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My question was specifically directed to wing chun , what makes one wing chun system complete ? Some systems have 3 empty hand forms, dummy , pole and knives. Some don't have empty hand forms at all . Some have more than a dozen empty hand forms and several dummy and weapon forms .

Wow, really? There are Wing Chun systems with no empty hand forms? I hadn't heard of those.

 

[zuti car]

Wow, really? There are Wing Chun systems with no empty hand forms? I hadn't heard of those.

Kolo systems , they have san sik method , not forms. Original Cheung Bo's system had no forms , only san sik .

 

[Vajramusti]

Yup. For me the wing chun that I do is a complete system. Continuing my wing chun development is quite satisfactory. Although I know things about other systems- I do not need to import and mix systems.
Ip Man's students varied widely in their time spent with Ip man hence the differe
nces in their understanding of Ip Man's wing chun.
Ip Man's wing chun is based on some key principles which are "natural" simple but profound and allows people to adjust and face quite a wide range of challenges.
Fist work, palm work, finger work, elbow work, shoulder work, feet, knees,throws,stability, mobility, from all sorts of angles, ground work if unavoidable. dealing with strikers, grapplers, kickers-it's all there.

 

[Vajramusti]

PS. Wing chun is complete in the sense that in a balanced way it trains the body, the mind and
energy for self defense, awareness and general health.

It is not the only way- top quality taiji will do those things too.
A good understanding of wing chun prepares you well for doing many other things in life.

Wing chun is not for dunderheads- if you on purpose lie on the ground, smoke and drink excessively, stay in inner turmoil, create chaos in body- mind- energy
coordination.

 

[zuti car]

There is an interesting piece of Pao Fa Lien history . Hong Kong brunch claims that Leung Jan learned from Dai Dong Fung on the red boats but only learned 3 from 10 or so forms . In that case most of wing chun styles today are incomplete .

 

[Callen]

Thanks for this post. Great discussion!

Many practitioners believe they have completed the system based on passing all the curriculum within their particular lineage, but in reality it's just the beginning. There is no true end or finishing point to Wing Chun. There is always much to learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many practitioners believe they have completed the system based on passing all the curriculum within their particular lineage, but in reality it's just the beginning. There is no true end or finishing point to Wing Chun. There is always much to learn.

Agree!

In the long fist system that I have trained, I have to learn about 12 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms, a total of 20 forms. The

- 3rd road Pao Chuan, and
- 4th road Cha Chuan

are 2 must learning forms. Since there are

- 10 roads Pao Chuan, and also
- 10 roads Cha Chuan,

not only my long fist training is not complete, my long fist teacher and his long fist teacher's training are not complete either.

One of my other long fist brothers has a 2nd long fist teacher. He had learned the

- 1st road Cha Chuan,
- 2nd road Cha Chuan, and
- 3rd road Cha Chuan,

from that teacher. Even that long fist teacher, his long fist is far from complete.

In the Shuai-Chiao system, there are over 400 throws. Has any Shuai-Chiao masters ever mastered all those 400 throws? I don't believe we can find even 1 Shuai-Jiao master on earth who can claim that he has mastered all 400 throws.

Our life time is just too short to complete anything. We can only do our best. Again, if we try to do everything, we may end with nothing.

 

[Vajramusti]

Often we hear someone has or hasn't a complete system . My question is , what is a complete wing chun system? If we look at Yip Man's lineage there aren't two Yip's students , even his sons, who have same curriculum . Sometime system's contents are so different that is hard to believe they all came from same source (teacher) . Now, what is a criteria for complete system, what is a minimum technical or any other content that make some system complete ? How can we determine if system is complete or not , this is especially important for people who are starting their wing chun practice?

 

[Vajramusti]

Ip Man did not use a cookie cutter to turn out students. The longer you stayed and learned from him provide you were a good student
the greater likelihood of understanding the art. By the time IM's sons started their wing chun IM had basically retired.

 

[zuti car]

Ip Man did not use a cookie cutter to turn out students. The longer you stayed and learned from him provide you were a good student
the greater likelihood of understanding the art. By the time IM's sons started their wing chun IM had basically retired.

So , you want to say that Yip Man didn't care if his own sons got the best of his art? I find that highly unlikely . What is possible and would be consistent with Chinese culture and traditions ( and Yip did care greatly about these things) is that Yip taught his sons complete art but withheld some key points from all others. I don't say that actually happened , but if there was a gap in knowledge , that gap could be found everywhere else but within his sons's systems .