2 X martial Arts??

[tellner]

I think the point isn't the variety of influences. It's being able to sythesize them strategically. Yes, you can study two (or more) fighting systems, but if you aren't able to integrate them into a single, systematic play of strategy and tactics, you wind up trapped like the fox in Aesop's fable, who has a hundred tricks but can't figure out when to use which one. You can learn a lot of things from different places, but I suspect you'll be doing yourself more harm than good if you don't find a way to synthesize them into a single consistent `operating system'. If you can, however, then you may have made real progress.

It's a big if, which is why it's probably better, for a lot of people anyway, to stick to one, already-worked-out synthesis of combat techs...

There's the heart of the matter, cleanly dissected and circulating gore.irate5:

You can't just memorize. You have to learn how to use it. And you have to learn how to integrate new knowledge. Or as Massad Ayoob puts it "It ain't simple and you ain't stupid."

That's really where JKD can shine and where it can fall flat on its prat. It can be a style like any other martial arts style - funny looking Wing Chun with very specific bits of boxing, fencing, a little bit of Judo and so on. "We do it exactly the way Bruce did from October 22 to March 4." Or it can provide you with a technical base and the tools to see what's significant about what other people do, extract the principles, training methods and cool tricks and integrate them into your own practice harmoniously.

The question of when you are ready to do that varies tremendously from person to person. It's part training, part natural inclination and part having a teacher who can show you how. Some never will. Some get it but need to wait until they have the technical skills and fighting ability to match their understanding. Others start out doing more than one thing. It's not an issue, just the most natural thing in the world. In Japan there are plenty of people who started Judo and Kendo in school and continue with them.

That's another point, come to think of it. If you're doing two things that are radically different, like wrestling and fencing, they won't interfere. If you're doing two things that are very close like Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu the only problem is going to be minor confusions about specific techniques. But why bother? It's where things are somewhat different but close enough that there's overlap.

In Guru Plinck's Silat classes you can always tell the people who have a martial arts background from the ones who don't. The ones who don't have nothing to unlearn and tend to make faster progress for quite a while. But once they've been silatized the ones who came from something else find their old stuff coming out as needed even if it looks a little funny.

Children who grow up hearing only one language tend to develop speech a bit faster. Those who are in bi- or multi-lingual environments take longer to get started, but once they do they pick up other languages easily. Something similar is probably at work albeit in different parts of the brain.

 

[tellner]

If you are training in two martial arts, or trying to anyway, it is akin to trying to serve two masters. I don't know where your loyalties lie. After you have trained in one martial art for quite a few years and established yourself as a loyal student, and your Instructor knows you can be counted on, then it is okay to start training in another art.

Loyalty to what? To a piece of technology? That doesn't make sense.

To the teacher? OK. Loyalty is good, but what does this have to do with cross-training? It's not like you're married to the guy up at the front of the class. You're not a slave. You aren't there to abase yourself and demonstrate craven subservience. Well, if you are there are places you can go to get that kind of treatment. And you get to see pretty ladies without all of their clothes on :wink2: If you mean that there's a virtue in utter obedience and completely surrendering your capacities as an adult and the ability to make choices for several years to someone whose main qualification as Guru is the ability to kick people I have to disagree. This isn't basic training for Stalin's Red Army, Komrad.

And what does he need to count on you to do? Show up for class on time in a clean uniform. Pay your dues. Work hard on the training floor. Refrain from being a bandit, a bully or a complete bastard or at least offer him a cut if you go for choice #1. I don't see how any of this will be affected by doing the same thing somewhere else.

The dynamics you're talking about seem more like those of an abusive, controlling husband than an athletics coach or an adult relationship between mentally competent grown ups. Seriously, you give these things impressive sounding names, but what are they when you look at them in the light? Why are they important?

 

[crushing]

Is it possible to train in two martial arts and put your all in to both or should it be one at a time?

Yes, you can train and excel in two martial arts.

As a wise man once never said, "He who goes after two rabbits, might get two rabbits with a single shot depending on rabbit proximity and shotgun spread, or it may take two shots or more to get two rabbits. You may not even see a rabbit, but that shouldn't prevent you from taking up a martial art. . .or two!"

 

[tellner]

Yes, you can train and excel in two martial arts.

As a wise man once never said, "He who goes after two rabbits, might get two rabbits with a single shot depending on rabbit proximity and shotgun spread, or it may take two shots or more to get two rabbits. You may not even see a rabbit, but that shouldn't prevent you from taking up a martial art. . .or two!"

:lol:

:lfao:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

It depends on when, where and with whom. There have been plenty of Japanese and Chinese practitioners who did (and do) more than one thing. Kano-Sensei had teaching credentials in several systems of Ju Jutsu. Of course, he was an innovator's innovator. Many of the Chinese-from-China sifus I've met have - for instance - Taiji, Ba-Gua and Xing Yi from different teachers. Others will deep six you if you even shake hands with someone from another school. As always, human relationships depend so much on the people involved.

When I did Okinawan Karate my teacher had Black Belts up the wazoo from his teachers in Okinawa. He had high ranking in the style, but before he got the Master Teacher certification he had to correct some deficiencies in his practice. They sent him to Judo and Aikido schools for a few years to (as he put it) "Pull the broomstick out of my butt", get some grappling and groundwork, and a few other things.

Umm first maybe I should start with saying I train Taiji (Yang and Chen), Xingyiquan and Sanda.

I am referring to training in China with greater than one Sifu at the same time particularly with Sifus of the internal styles. As I said on the previous page in response to 2 other posts "ever heard of Sun Lutang" Master of Xingyi, Bagua, Hao style taiji and creator of Sun Style Taiji, so I am aware that they train multiple styles in China. And they also, on occasion train with greater than on Sifu, but loyalty is VERY important there.

So yes you can train with greater than one Sifu in China, just not usually at the same time. And I should have been clearer in my response. If you do not show loyal to an instructor in China, particularly in internal styles, you may learn some stuff, but not much, because you are not serious as far as they are concerned. You can however train with one for several years and move on to another that is fairly common. Or train with one as far as he can take you and move on to another. But 2 at a time is questionable and to say the least painful, time consuming and tiring. They generally train greater than 1 or 2 days a week sometimes 5 to 7 days a week actually.

My Taiji Sifu trained with only one teacher his whole life in China however my Sanda Sifu trained mainly with his Sanda Sifu and still sees him but has also trained a couple other styles, not in depth like Sanda but it fit his purposes. But his Sifu was aware of this, had no problem with this and he did it. But Sanda is a bit different in it views of training too. However with that said it is my Sanda Sifu is saying I train too many different styles. But he has no problem with my Taiji because I have done that for so long. It is my Xingyi he thinks is one to many. He likes Xingyi, he has trained some Xingyi but I am a beginner and Xingyi and Sanda and he does not like that. I can continue Xingyi and that is fine with him or I can continue Sanda and that is fine with him and if I want after I get Sanda under control I can go back to Xingyi.

I guess my point is, and has been all along here is that you can train greater than one style and become good at all of them if you TRAIN them.

However the post I was responding to I was responding to loyalty to a teacher and it is VERY important in China and I assumed equally so in Japan.

 

[tellner]

Serial monogamy rather than polyamory

 

[Langenschwert]

You certainly can train in more than one art. It helps if the two arts are synergistic. I train in two arts, longsword and rapier. I find one makes me better at the other. Learning rapier helped my point control in longsword, and how to deal with thrusts. Learning longsword helps me cut more effectively in rapier, and how to fight more agressively in general. And learning some Ringen (German medieval combat wrestling) helps with any close range fighting, armed or not. Grappling and throws are an important part of learning how to use weapons.

It's a matter of how much time you have, what your attention span is like, and how related the arts are to begin with. Good luck in your training.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Once again it would definately come down to the individual. Some people probably would have very little difficulty studying one or more arts at the same time. While another person might really be best just studying one for a long while. Everyone is a little bit different in this regard. I do think having a base in one system is nice but depending on the individual may not be necessary. As to the loyalty issue well I think that any student and instructor should be attempting to train/teach to their full potential during class and with mutual respect of each other will come a loyalty that will hopefully last them a lifetime. Does that preclude either from styding another art absolutely not!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Serial monogamy rather than polyamory

I once heard the whole thing described, by people currently training in China, as having a Chinese Sifu is much like having a wife.

 

[MJS]

Is it possible to train in two martial arts and put your all in to both or should it be one at a time?

Yes, it is possible. I do feel though that the person should already have a solid base art first. I started training in BJJ when I was a Brown Belt in Kenpo. I also did Arnis, but that was more on/off at the time. That has since changed however, to a more regular basis.

As far as being able to split up your training time. This isn't an issue for me, because I'm not in any rush. I'm interested in training and learning, not the belt or rank that I get.

Mike

 

[Drac]

You can, but I doubt you would get to excel in one or the other.AoG

What he said...

 

[MJS]

To me, aside from splitting your energy and concentration into two directions, it's also about loyalty. If you are training in two martial arts, or trying to anyway, it is akin to trying to serve two masters. I don't know where your loyalties lie. After you have trained in one martial art for quite a few years and established yourself as a loyal student, and your Instructor knows you can be counted on, then it is okay to start training in another art. Several of our black belts. including me, have. Our GM's son practiced BJJ. But he was also a 4th Dan before he took it up. It's not about demanding that you stay only with me, it's about firmly establishing your basics and your loyalty before stretching your wings.

I'm confused. Why should a person be loyal to a set of techniques bound together by an over-riding strategy?

Or, in the case of being loyal to an instructor, why would training at another school, if it offers what the student wants, be considered disloyal?

Further to that, why would a person owe 'loyalty' to a school or instructor?

I have to agree with Adept on this. I train hard, I pay my dues on time, I don't talk bad about the school, and this goes for past schools as well. However, what I do outside of that school, is my choice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What he said...

Don't tell that to my Xingyi teacher (Xingyi, Bagua, Yiquan) he trained Xingyi and Bagua at the same time.. and that guy is VERY good... and he hits with much the same power as a truck.

As a matter of fact I would avoid telling that to a plethora of Xingyi/Bagua people that cross train in Beijing. Train one for awhile get very good at one and move on to the other and get very good at it too.

 

[tahuti]

One of the NLP books I read had: 1-unconcious incompetence (absolute beginner), don't have a clue how much doesn't know 2- concious incompetence, some training in skill, fastest skillup in this stage 3- concious competence, you need to think how to perform 4- unconcious competence, technique is just done without thinking how to do it For concious competence it is estimated about 1000 hours of training. Is it possible to train 2 yes, is it for begginer in martial arts no. Some say after 6months, but better after at least 1 year of practice in primary art. Also, if they are not conflicting or overlapping than it is possible eg rapier/boxing, but no boxing/muay thai (at least till you get some experience in one of them first)

 

[exile]

I have to agree with Adept on this. I train hard, I pay my dues on time, I don't talk bad about the school, and this goes for past schools as well. However, what I do outside of that school, is my choice.

The concept of loyalty here has to be defined against the relevant context. That's why I think what Adept and MJS have said is true in a way that needs no apology or qualification. Think about 17th c. Japan, say. Loyalty to a school of `fencing'—of which there were many—was defined in the context of rivalries amongs different schools teaching essentially the same art—fighting with the katana. Something similar held in kwan-era Korea: people were teaching pretty much the same tangsudo/kongsudo system, essentially the Shotokan/Shudokan that the kwan founders had learned in Korea and brought back to teach. So again, you're looking at rivalry between establishments offering the same service, so to speak. And the fencing schools and the kwans weren't just places of instruction: they were a kind of second family, which you had a place in and where considerations of status, honor and mutual protection—especially the latter!—were very high on the list of priorities. You defended the honor of your school the way you defended the honor of your family.

But in the early 21st century Western world, a MA school is basically yet another educational institution, and MA instructors are teachers, not players in a kind of scaled-down feudalism. And now there are many MAs which are not in an inherently competitive situation: akido and karate/taekwondo are both available on the same block, or within a block or two of each other, so to speak, and they overlap in almost no respect. No one thinks that. if you pursue two different arts, this reflects on the honor or reputation of your instructor in either art, because, in a sense, there's no inherent rivalry between the two schools (as vs. kwans in 1950s Seoul, for example). I've known students at one university who commute to another school to take courses of particular relevance to their program of study. In my own department, students take courses in the mathematics and engineering departments to learn certain analytic methods and technologies that will help them in their program of study; neither I nor any of my colleagues would dream of calling this `disloyal'—we actually encourage it (when it serves a necessary purpose). So like Adept and MJS, I think that in the culture we're talking about (as opposed, perhaps, to the `source' cultures for these arts), studying two or more different arts simultaneously doesn't impinge on questions of loyalty. As far as feasiblity, practicality and so on... that's a different kettle of worms completely. But a completely honorable student can still study multiple arts without moral/ethical qualms, IMO...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Is it possible to train in two martial arts and put your all in to both or should it be one at a time?

It would depend on the arts in question.
Sean

 

[10,000 Hit Combo]

I don't recommend it. It can be done. Try to find congruent styles. Train your own way by yourself a little just to remember how you fight. Take what is usefull. Discard what is useless. Add what is specifically your own. Q: "what's worse than biting into an apple and finding a worm?", A: "the rapture"

 

[qi-tah]

If you were a total beginner to MA, doing 2 arts at once sounds like a sure-fire way to at least double yr chances of injury! But having a grounding in one MA and feeling a strong urge to explore another art is pretty normal i reckon - hey, human beings are by nature curious about what they don't know. And we all start with common raw material, ie. a body... with only so many basic ways in which bodies move and everything around that being variation. So if you have a grounding in "basic MA co-ordination", then physically picking up another MA will probably not be that hard to begin with. What it will do to yr brain, however, is a different matter...!
Don't know about the loyalty issue... i always tended to file that one under "politics". But i wouldn't train under two different people who taught the same art anyway, i reckon that would just be too confusing.

I once heard a delightful description for those who flit from school to school and cherry-pick from each style... "martial tarts". Perhaps there's a little bit of the martial tart in all of us!