1 Question about Kusanku

[TSDTexan]

Kūsankū (クーサンクー、公相君) or Kūshankū (クーシャンクー), also known as Kwang Shang Fu if tradition is true, he learned this form from a shalin monk in southern China before moving to Okinawa.
If so, what art or which of the many Shaolin Quan do you think this form most resembles?

 

[clfsean]

None really. CMA's IME don't move that way. The mechanics are disconnected. There "appears" to be a lot of tension in his body. I don't know if that's practice or performance. But it doesn't "look" Chinese to me. Sure there are about a dozen different styles or more that I can draw reference from & resemblance to with it in pieces, but that's kinda cherry picking.

 

[Tez3]

It doesn't resemble the Kushanku I know from my karate.

 

[elder999]

When done properly, some of the kusanku kata resembles White Crane techniques. Most Japanese and Okinawan styles have some version of it-in Kyokushin we call it Kanku, as they do in Shotokan, and in Tang Soo Do it's called something else, but it's a version of the same kata.,,,

It doesn't resemble the Kushanku I know from my karate.

There are several versions and variations throughout all the styles-I kinda like the wado ryu version, actually-it's one of the ones with a more flowing, Chinese flavor, but still distinctly Japanese (and not too different from Shotokan's kanku)...In some styles, like Shotokan and Kyokushin, there are actually two kushanku kata, kanku sho and kanku dai.

Unlike sanchin kata, though, I don't think there's any direct corollary to be found in Chinese styles-it was likely assembled from what Kusanku (or whomever) taught in Okinawa (or learned in China), but assembled in Okinawa....

 

[TSDTexan]

None really. CMA's IME don't move that way. The mechanics are disconnected. There "appears" to be a lot of tension in his body. I don't know if that's practice or performance. But it doesn't "look" Chinese to me. Sure there are about a dozen different styles or more that I can draw reference from & resemblance to with it in pieces, but that's kinda cherry picking.

This cherry picking is what I am looking for.

Both the original root CMA has had what I call "style drift" on the mainland, and on Okinawa in the interim of Kusanku teaching what he knew way back when. [Presuming it was a single art that the Shaolin monk taught Kusanku]

At best technique snapshotting gives us a good set of clues.

 

[TSDTexan]

When done properly, some of the kusanku kata resembles White Crane techniques. Most Japanese and Okinawan styles have some version of it-in Kyokushin we call it Kanku, as they do in Shotokan, and in Tang Soo Do it's called something else, but it's a version of the same kata.,,,



There are several versions and variations throughout all the styles-I kinda like the wado ryu version, actually-it's one of the ones with a more flowing, Chinese flavor, but still distinctly Japanese (and not too different from Shotokan's kanku)...In some styles, like Shotokan and Kyokushin, there are actually two kushanku kata, kanku sho and kanku dai.

Unlike sanchin kata, though, I don't think there's any direct corollary to be found in Chinese styles-it was likely assembled from what Kusanku (or whomever) taught in Okinawa (or learned in China), but assembled in Okinawa....

공상군 typically pronounced Kong Sang Koon.
But a number of Koreans I have known pronounced it Kanhsankoo.

 

[clfsean]

Unlike sanchin kata, though, I don't think there's any direct corollary to be found in Chinese styles-it was likely assembled from what Kusanku (or whomever) taught in Okinawa (or learned in China), but assembled in Okinawa....

This ...

 

[clfsean]

This cherry picking is what I am looking for.

Explain please. Just because I see what could be commonalities doesn't make it concrete.

Both the original root CMA has had what I call "style drift" on the mainland, and on Okinawa in the interim of Kusanku teaching what he knew way back when. [Presuming it was a single art that the Shaolin monk taught Kusanku]

Root CMA ... but there's no indication of what that ever was, let alone the level of skill attained in it.

At best technique snapshotting gives us a good set of clues.

Faulty clues at best I think.

 

[TSDTexan]

Explain please. Just because I see what could be commonalities doesn't make it concrete.



Root CMA ... but there's no indication of what that ever was, let alone the level of skill attained in it.



Faulty clues at best I think.

Well.. why cherry pick for corresponding techniques in CMA arts? Well the form is Okinawan.

Master Kushanku died when Sakugawa was 28 years old.

"Tode" Sakugawa then developed the kata and named it in honor of his teacher.

Sakugawa passed the kata to Soken "Bushi" Matusmura, who in turn passed it to Chotoku Kyan (among many), from whom it was taught to Tatsuo Shimabuku. This OP video is Kyan lineage.

But this kata has made it into just about every main branch tradition of karate.

The kata was built by a young Okinawan man who was studying under two CMA masters. Thus, both Takahara Peichin and Master Kushanku influenced the development of Kusanku Kata.

Since the form is not Chinese but the techniques are...
Perhaps we should try to look for arts that do the same techniques in a similar manner.

Hence... a resemblance search.

In year 1756, Kusanku came to Okinawa, along about then with the Ming settlement of "36 Chinese families" in the village of Kanemura near the city of Naha.

There is no doubt that the root CMA has been obscured by the passage of time.

 

[elder999]

W

There is no doubt that the root CMA has been obscured by the passage of time.

It might be White Crane, but most of the kata that's called "White Crane" in Okinawa bears little or no resemblance to White Crane gung fu forms-with the exception, of course, of sanchin, which clearly originated in White Crane's zhan jian...otherwise, what we have are techniques. The only discernible, distinctive ones within kushanku/kanku are likely from White Crane-no particular routine, like zhan jian, but techniques that Sakukawa put together.

 

[TimoS]

It doesn't resemble the Kushanku I know from my karate.

Interesting. In the video Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei is performing the kata that is also known as Chatan Yara Kusanku the way it's done in Shorin ryu Seibukan and while there are some differences to the way Kusanku kata is performed in Wado ryu, the moves are mostly the same as in the video. The stances, and the way the hips are used, are very different, but not, IMHO, so much the moves.

 

[TimoS]

Sakugawa passed the kata to Soken "Bushi" Matusmura, who in turn passed it to Chotoku Kyan (among many), from whom it was taught to Tatsuo Shimabuku. This OP video is Kyan lineage.

There are a couple of problems in this: first, Kyan didn't learn this kata from Bushi Matsumura. He learned it from Yara pechin. Second, we don't really know for certain what Sakugawa taught, or even who he was (I mean, it could be that he never existed. Unlikely, sure, but I don't think there's any real proof). And for sure nobody knows who really taught him. The stories of Kusanku, Chinto etc. might be just that, stories. Oral tradition isn't the most reliable, after all.
Here's some info we have on Yara pechin (I'm translating this from a booklet we in Seibukan Finland have published for our trainees). This section deals with the known teachers of Kyan Chotoku

"Yara pechin

His next teacher was Yara sensei, who lived close to Kyan sensei in Chatan. He taught Kyan the difficult, yet beautiful kata Kusanku. Yara is said to have been about the same age as Matsumura sensei. This claim doesn't however make sense when compared to another claim that says Kyan learned the kata when he was over 50. The claim would make Yara over 100 years old. According to historians there was another Yara in Chatan, who lived during another century. This means that he couldn't have been teaching Kyan sensei, but he may have taught the relatives of the Yara who taught Kyan"

 

[Tez3]

Interesting. In the video Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei is performing the kata that is also known as Chatan Yara Kusanku the way it's done in Shorin ryu Seibukan and while there are some differences to the way Kusanku kata is performed in Wado ryu, the moves are mostly the same as in the video. The stances, and the way the hips are used, are very different, but not, IMHO, so much the moves.

Most katas contain moves that are similar however that doesn't make it the same.

 

[TSDTexan]

Interesting. In the video Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei is performing the kata that is also known as Chatan Yara Kusanku the way it's done in Shorin ryu Seibukan and while there are some differences to the way Kusanku kata is performed in Wado ryu, the moves are mostly the same as in the video. The stances, and the way the hips are used, are very different, but not, IMHO, so much the moves.

Thing is that I have heard it both ways.
That he learned it from "bushi" and other traditions say he learned it from Yara. Perhaps there was a revision of the kata and he learned two versions of the same form... an earlier and a later form

 

[TSDTexan]

There are a couple of problems in this: first, Kyan didn't learn this kata from Bushi Matsumura. He learned it from Yara pechin. Second, we don't really know for certain what Sakugawa taught, or even who he was (I mean, it could be that he never existed. Unlikely, sure, but I don't think there's any real proof). And for sure nobody knows who really taught him. The stories of Kusanku, Chinto etc. might be just that, stories. Oral tradition isn't the most reliable, after all.
Here's some info we have on Yara pechin (I'm translating this from a booklet we in Seibukan Finland have published for our trainees). This section deals with the known teachers of Kyan Chotoku

"Yara pechin

His next teacher was Yara sensei, who lived close to Kyan sensei in Chatan. He taught Kyan the difficult, yet beautiful kata Kusanku. Yara is said to have been about the same age as Matsumura sensei. This claim doesn't however make sense when compared to another claim that says Kyan learned the kata when he was over 50. The claim would make Yara over 100 years old. According to historians there was another Yara in Chatan, who lived during another century. This means that he couldn't have been teaching Kyan sensei, but he may have taught the relatives of the Yara who taught Kyan"

That he never existed is a stretch...
Well, he is well documented. He was awarded title "Satunushi" (two major classes below direct royal blood)
Pechin

• Pekumi : Official

• Satunushi Pechin : Middle Official

• Chikudun Pechin : Lower Official

by King Sho Tai. This is in the Sho Court documents.

His patrilinal linege is also recorded. He was trained by a noble. And at the end of his life he trained a noble.

There is enough evidence on paper to say he existed.

At least that’s what Sakugawa’s family in Okinawa claims, and who knows best if not them? The guy produced biological offspring who continued his name.

They also say... historical books that say He died in China are in error. He died with his family in Okinawa.

I haven't been into their family library to look at the records, but okinawa is pretty small and trying to pretend to be blood decendants of someone like that would get outted pretty quick.

 

[TimoS]

Thing is that I have heard it both ways.

He couldn't have learned it from Bushi Matsumura, because by the time Kyan most likely learned the kata, Matsumura had been dead for a very long time. Kyan learned Matsumura's versions of Seisan and Gojushiho. It is likely that the actual teaching was done by Azato, because Matsumura himself was already an old man when Kyan trained there. Whoever it was, he taught Matsumura's karate, that much is certain. It is likely that Matsumura taught kata Kusanku to some of his students (e.g. Azato), but Kyan didn't learn that version.

 

[TSDTexan]

He couldn't have learned it from Bushi Matsumura, because by the time Kyan most likely learned the kata, Matsumura had been dead for a very long time. Kyan learned Matsumura's versions of Seisan and Gojushiho. It is likely that the actual teaching was done by Azato, because Matsumura himself was already an old man when Kyan trained there. Whoever it was, he taught Matsumura's karate, that much is certain. It is likely that Matsumura taught kata Kusanku to some of his students (e.g. Azato), but Kyan didn't learn that version.

Good points I think I have to do some more research.
Thank you
Chotoku Kyan born 1870
Matsumura dies 1901.
There exists a period from 1880 to 1901 where Chotoku could have learned it.

 

[clfsean]

In year 1756, Kusanku came to Okinawa, along about then with the Ming settlement of "36 Chinese families" in the village of Kanemura near the city of Naha.

There is no doubt that the root CMA has been obscured by the passage of time.

These two lines. Family styles are just that. They tend in large part to not migrate outside of the family. Many have disappeared over time due to that.

And the obscurity of time is a given.

I'm not knocking you... far from it. But rather it's more a snipe hunt. There was "something" learned, granted & given. But what it was is mostly unknown & how much was transmitted is definitely unknown.

 

[TSDTexan]

He couldn't have learned it from Bushi Matsumura, because by the time Kyan most likely learned the kata, Matsumura had been dead for a very long time. Kyan learned Matsumura's versions of Seisan and Gojushiho. It is likely that the actual teaching was done by Azato, because Matsumura himself was already an old man when Kyan trained there. Whoever it was, he taught Matsumura's karate, that much is certain. It is likely that Matsumura taught kata Kusanku to some of his students (e.g. Azato), but Kyan didn't learn that version.

The years of his Matsumura's lifespan are reported variously as c.1809-1901 or 1798–1890 or 1809–1896 or 1800–1892.
All within an age range that would allow for Chotoku Kyan to learn a few kata from him.

 

[TSDTexan]

He couldn't have learned it from Bushi Matsumura, because by the time Kyan most likely learned the kata, Matsumura had been dead for a very long time. Kyan learned Matsumura's versions of Seisan and Gojushiho. It is likely that the actual teaching was done by Azato, because Matsumura himself was already an old man when Kyan trained there. Whoever it was, he taught Matsumura's karate, that much is certain. It is likely that Matsumura taught kata Kusanku to some of his students (e.g. Azato), but Kyan didn't learn that version.

The old man argument holds no water. This is Okinawa we are talking about here. The country noted for regularly producing the able bodied sound minded 100+ year olds.

Matsumura was about the same age that Morio Higaonna is right now when Chotoku was able to learn from him.

And Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura was extremely able bodied. Called the Miyamoto Musashi of Okinawa for countless duels of which he retired undefeated. Some to the death.