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MartialArtist
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- #21
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andurilking2
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- #22
A.R.K. I feel most sorry for the children themselves. What this basically amounts to is lying to children. And it could color there entire perception of what the MA's really are, or at least strives to be.
I agree with many above that a teen [16-18] should be the minimum age for a 1st Dan or equivelent.
i agree unfortunately when these "babies" find themselves in a real world situation or find themselves pit up against someone of a lower rank and they get destroyed theyre thaughts will be that martial arts is a joke and probably wont continue training by the time they hit puberty,
just my thaughts but i find this very very insulting
I agree with many above that a teen [16-18] should be the minimum age for a 1st Dan or equivelent.
i agree unfortunately when these "babies" find themselves in a real world situation or find themselves pit up against someone of a lower rank and they get destroyed theyre thaughts will be that martial arts is a joke and probably wont continue training by the time they hit puberty,
just my thaughts but i find this very very insulting
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MountainSage
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- #23
Part of the the solution can be seen when comparing the requirements of the Kukkiwon verses the Korean TKD Association. KTA is the non-sport type of TKD and the organization most Koreans have their rank issued and some also have a kukkiwon ranking also. I'm with you Martial artist, let get back to traditional training and save TKD.
Mountain Sage
Mountain Sage
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Disco
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- #24
I just went to the KTA web site and their prime focus (their words) is to promote the SPORT of TKD. Unless there is another KTA, both organizations have the same goals. I would assume that the ITF (Gen. Choi) is the non-sport style of TKD, if there is such a thing anymore. I know there are instructors out there that teach non-sport, but I do believe that the Organizations are out for the money and the money is in the sport venue.
The same people that brought TKD to other shores are the same people that found the golden goose. Their the only ones who can/could change the direction of TKD and I would'nt bet on that happening anytime in the future. For now, It's all about the Benjamins..........
And I stand corrected on the Kukkiwon standards. The age is now 15 for Black Belt. It used to be 16 but they rolled it back. So much for holding to a higher level. I guess I'm just over the hill and living in the past. I still believe in the arts the way they used to be, but the bus left the station while I was in the mens room.
The same people that brought TKD to other shores are the same people that found the golden goose. Their the only ones who can/could change the direction of TKD and I would'nt bet on that happening anytime in the future. For now, It's all about the Benjamins..........
And I stand corrected on the Kukkiwon standards. The age is now 15 for Black Belt. It used to be 16 but they rolled it back. So much for holding to a higher level. I guess I'm just over the hill and living in the past. I still believe in the arts the way they used to be, but the bus left the station while I was in the mens room.
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MountainSage
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- #25
Disco,
Must be a different organization. I'll hunt the address up and post it. The KTA I'm talking about is military based not sport. From what I remember, their outfit requires thing like being proficent at several judo/yudo throws, tumbling, and much less emphasis on competitive sparring.
Mountian Sage
Must be a different organization. I'll hunt the address up and post it. The KTA I'm talking about is military based not sport. From what I remember, their outfit requires thing like being proficent at several judo/yudo throws, tumbling, and much less emphasis on competitive sparring.
Mountian Sage
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MartialArtist
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- #26
The question is your definition of saving.
Bring back the traditional methods, then 99% of the instructors will be on welfare.
Traditional training methods just aren't popular. The majority of the population either won't survive training because they're used to having it so easy and will quit. That can destroy TKD as in there won't be many practitioners. Sports were you get hit hard aren't popular. The only sport I know in the US where you get hit hard that is popular is football. Any combat sports? Nah. Even boxing or judo as a sport isn't that popular if you look at all the numbers.
Turner
Blue Belt
I have a school in my local area that promotes their black belts fairly young. I believe that it is fairly sad. When I first moved into the area I went to their website to get a feel for the school before I attended the school and their stated goals showed me that it wasn't a school that I was looking for. It is a Tae Kwon Do school whose focus is on the sport aspects of TKD. One of their selling points is control though no-contact. Not exactly self defense oriented in any way.
Their website did an awesome job at telling me that it wasn't a school that I was interested in and while it didn't come out and say it, it gave me the impression that the instructors didn't care about self defense in the least. I have no problem with that. They made it clear that self defense wasn't their goal... that exercise, discipline and character were the goals. It might not be what I'm looking for, but at least they aren't lying to people... or are they?
I went and looked through their the testimonials and a majority of them said 'not only am I learning self defense, I'm also....(fill in any other benefit you'd like)' Apparently the instructors did a wonderful job of letting me know that they aren't self defense oriented, but they aren't letting on to their students. Why? Because self defense is IMPLIED in all martial arts. People say that they join the martial arts to lose weight or to gain self confidence or get in shape or learn discipline... but the reason they chose a martial art over other activities is because they wanted to learn self defense as well.
Are they McDojo's? I don't really know. They don't advertise self defense in the normal ads, but testimonials are a form of advertisement. Are these 'tiny tiger' black belts really capable of defending themselves? Are they capable of being a true 'ambassador' to their art?
Their website did an awesome job at telling me that it wasn't a school that I was interested in and while it didn't come out and say it, it gave me the impression that the instructors didn't care about self defense in the least. I have no problem with that. They made it clear that self defense wasn't their goal... that exercise, discipline and character were the goals. It might not be what I'm looking for, but at least they aren't lying to people... or are they?
I went and looked through their the testimonials and a majority of them said 'not only am I learning self defense, I'm also....(fill in any other benefit you'd like)' Apparently the instructors did a wonderful job of letting me know that they aren't self defense oriented, but they aren't letting on to their students. Why? Because self defense is IMPLIED in all martial arts. People say that they join the martial arts to lose weight or to gain self confidence or get in shape or learn discipline... but the reason they chose a martial art over other activities is because they wanted to learn self defense as well.
Are they McDojo's? I don't really know. They don't advertise self defense in the normal ads, but testimonials are a form of advertisement. Are these 'tiny tiger' black belts really capable of defending themselves? Are they capable of being a true 'ambassador' to their art?
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Disco
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- #28
MountainSage, Thanks for looking up the address, hope you can find it.
MartialArtist, your right about the old ways not coming back, but what do you think is the solution or is there a solution?
Both you guys, check out this: www.ustw.org
Tell us what you think. Thanks in advance......................
:asian:
MartialArtist, your right about the old ways not coming back, but what do you think is the solution or is there a solution?
Both you guys, check out this: www.ustw.org
Tell us what you think. Thanks in advance......................
:asian:
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MountainSage
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- #29
Finally found the website address for that KTA organization and did I miss by a mile. It's call US National Taekwondo Association, their site is www.usnta.org. This group does do some competitive sparring, but it doesn't seem to be their emphasis; check it out. Disco, did a quick read of the website you suggested and no comment at this time. Want to read a lot closer before sticking my other foot in my mouth. MartialArtist, I totally agree that most people couldn't endure a traditional training program, I am probably on that list, yet a small core of tradionally trained, highly skilled folks couldn't hurt. We could lose some very valuable skills and information over the years as the martial art of TKD is watered down for the martial sport of TKD. There is an interesting read at www.yudofederation.com, the "where we stand" section. Take a look and I'd like to hear your opinions.
Mountain Sage
Mountain Sage
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RCastillo
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- #30
Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Anybody who promotes a young MA student to BLACK that early is of course bogus.
In order to reach poom black, IMO, you should be at least be a teen that has been training since they were dropping yellow mud. But, then again, IMHO this is just my take...
:ultracool
Yellow mud???
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RCastillo
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- #31
No wonder I can't get any students. I refuse to teach babies, and water down the art!:asian:
personally, I don't feel that there's anything wrong with junior black belts, or pee wee black belts, or whatever. Children need something to strive for too, and if it keeps them interested in the martial arts, there's probably not any harm in it.
My old TKD instructor used to use the white belts with the colored stripes for pee wee, which he freely admitted to the parents was basically "karate day care"...they had to know a few things, but it was mostly games to teach coordination skills and things like that. I never saw him promote a pee wee to black, tho... they only promoted the little ones once a year, right when school was out, so most of them didn't go past two or three pee wee ranks before they would go into the junior classes. They could wear their pee wee belts there if they chose, but lined up with the white belts, and as soon as they tested for their next rank, they wore a junior belt instead.
he used the colored belts with the white stripes for the junior ranks, and some of his junior black belts were good, but because their belt looked different from a regular black belt, they did understand that they still had more to learn, and usually would join the adult classes when they hit 13 and were deemed "mature enough".
I think because the instructor was so careful to make the belts look different, there was a better understanding that someone of a junior rank was NOT a full black belt.
My old TKD instructor used to use the white belts with the colored stripes for pee wee, which he freely admitted to the parents was basically "karate day care"...they had to know a few things, but it was mostly games to teach coordination skills and things like that. I never saw him promote a pee wee to black, tho... they only promoted the little ones once a year, right when school was out, so most of them didn't go past two or three pee wee ranks before they would go into the junior classes. They could wear their pee wee belts there if they chose, but lined up with the white belts, and as soon as they tested for their next rank, they wore a junior belt instead.
he used the colored belts with the white stripes for the junior ranks, and some of his junior black belts were good, but because their belt looked different from a regular black belt, they did understand that they still had more to learn, and usually would join the adult classes when they hit 13 and were deemed "mature enough".
I think because the instructor was so careful to make the belts look different, there was a better understanding that someone of a junior rank was NOT a full black belt.
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Disco
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- #33
MountainSage, thanks for the address. Went to the site and a Red Flag popped up (The Founder). Check this site: http://ma_success.tripod.com/bio.htm
I'd perfer that you draw your own conclusions. Thanks again for taking the time to find it though.
:asian:
I'd perfer that you draw your own conclusions. Thanks again for taking the time to find it though.
:asian:
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MountainSage
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- #34
Disco, when I read the name Hackworth, I must admitt that the hair stood up on the back of my neck. Couldn't remember why at the time, but you reminded me with that website. I think the program requirements are solid inspite of the individual promoting them in the US. Sometimes we, that includes me, forget that it is possible to seperate the man from the message. The man may be a (insert comment here), but the message will have some vailidity. How did like the Yudo site articles?
Mountain sage
Mountain sage
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Disco
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- #35
Could'nt access the yudo site. I'll try again. Sometimes my PC has a mind of it's own. You could be right as far as the Organization goes. I'll look at it again in more depth this time. When I saw the name I just stopped there. Thanks again.....
:asian:
:asian:
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Disco
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- #36
Just went through the entire site. It's what I originally thought. Just another one of his money maker Organizations. Click on the application button in the site and it comes up with the membership fees. If they want to focus on self defense as they claim, the fee structure is based on being a "competitor". Sounds a contradiction to me. Knowing the history, the hair on the back of my neck is still standing. Thanks again for taking the time to share.
:asian:
:asian:
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MountainSage
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- #37
Disco,
My focus was the requirements that are required. There are some falling, tumbling and throws that are not usually required for an average TKD program. IMHO when these skills are added it move TKD from a "slap and giggle" type training to more of a martial art type, hopefully reducing the chance of baby black belts. I have found through gleaning info. from various site, good and bad, that some important skills and techniques can be add to an exsisting program to improve the total quality. I must politely suggest that you keep an open mind because even the worst instructor can offer a small piece of information that might improve a person skills. It just takes a little time to seperate the wheat from the chaff, as they say.
Mountain Sage
My focus was the requirements that are required. There are some falling, tumbling and throws that are not usually required for an average TKD program. IMHO when these skills are added it move TKD from a "slap and giggle" type training to more of a martial art type, hopefully reducing the chance of baby black belts. I have found through gleaning info. from various site, good and bad, that some important skills and techniques can be add to an exsisting program to improve the total quality. I must politely suggest that you keep an open mind because even the worst instructor can offer a small piece of information that might improve a person skills. It just takes a little time to seperate the wheat from the chaff, as they say.
Mountain Sage
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Disco
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- #38
What you say is true. For all I know, the man may be a fine Martial Artist. If he is trying to add back to what TKD was/should be, then I wish him good fortune and I hope there is true purpose in his quest. I'm reserved in acceptance, because this seems to be the main discussion in TKD today. "Get back to the real deal". An opportunist jumps on whatever is popular at the moment and sells it. This could be just another case of that. I'd very much like to be wrong in my viewpoint, just for the sake of the art. I'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for taking the time to respond and for looking for information.
:asian:
:asian:
