Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,274
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    so is that you taking a wild guess or some secret definition your not prepared to share, lots of thing that do have a competitive aspect are not classed as sport, poker and darts for two, so that cant be the defining aspect can it

    its a commonly accepted definition thats required, otherwise just say its your opinion and not an actual fact and we can move on
     
  2. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    The fact that you contradicted yourself in your own post in an asinine attempt to prove me wrong invalidates your entire statement here. However, let's try this again; there are no strikes in Judo randori. You doing them in an underhanded manner doesn't disprove that fact. Just like me jamming an elbow into my partner's throat while in side control doesn't disprove the fact that there is no striking in Bjj rolling either. The fact that you seemingly don't understand this is quite telling.

    Where did I ever say I was an "expert" on Japanese Jujutsu? Also please keep the discussion of sex to yourself.

    Uh What?
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Don't bother. Your fact-free and understanding-free claims don't interest me.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Poker and darts are classed as sports dude.

    You mean a commonly accepted definition like something that requires a competition between individuals or groups?
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,274
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    the nature of commonly accepted mean one you haven't just made

    you know, an authoritative body, the Olympics association, a court of law that sort of thing

    nb the Olympic association said darts was not a sport and the English courts said that poker was not
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    You mean like this;

    sport
    1. 1.
      an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

    from the online dictionary on google that you can easily access yourself which pretty much said what I stated about 10 posts ago?
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,274
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    thats 1.1 which leads me to suspect that there are other definitions that you have elected to suppress, perhaps a link

    if we take that a face value then a game of soccer played in the freezing rain that no body finds entertaining would not be classed as a sport
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  8. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    83
    That's not randori. That is the randori no kata from Shodokan aikido, a kata that contains the techniques allowed in competition. And aikido is a gendai budo, not classical JJ.



    The techniques are used consistently in competition.



    Again, assuming that you're not deforming facts on purpose (BTW judo has the same exact thing, also called randori no kata), it's clear that you're talking about things that you don't understand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    That's been pretty standard of him in this thread.

    Pretty much the only reason I'm still monitoring this thread is because Tony and Chris are in it and they always have something useful to listen to.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  10. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,274
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    here the oxford english
    here is the oxford english bdef
    a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:
    Football, basketball, and hockey are all team sports.
    I enjoy winter sports like skiing and skating.
    [ U ] UK
    all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment:
    She used to do/play a lot of sport when she was younger.

    and before you say you dont care about english english

    here is Websters defintion

    noun
    Definition of sport (Entry 2 of 3)

    1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
    b: sexual play
    c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
    (2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
    2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
    b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION


    so as they are the most authoritative source on English and american English , those are the commonly accepted
    definitions

    you need to rebut those
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I said that's the type of randori that they would do, if they would do a randori at all. I'm well aware that Aikido isn't a Classical JJ. The point is that Brendan stated that Tenshin Shinyo Ryu had randori like Judo, and in absence of his evidence to support that claim, I posted that response.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Without any evidence to support your claim, and without any knowledge whatsoever of the system you're talking about.

    What is your basis to say that the randori in TSR is similar to the Shodokan kata that you mentioned?
     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,763
    Likes Received:
    4,275
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I figured out a long time ago that just because a given combat sport doesn't allow certain moves doesn't necessarily mean competitors in that sport don't know how to use those moves. What it may mean is that they know how to use those moves in such a way that the ref doesn't see it and penalize them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I think you should follow the line of discussion between myself and the other poster before you make such claims. Brendan stated that this CJJ had randori like Judo. I've been asking him to verify that for multiple posts, since based on what I've read, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu contains no randori at all. Finally, I posted that IF TSRJ had randori, it would more than likely resemble the video I posted.

    I'm still waiting for Brendan to get back to me. Based on everything I've read and seen on the art, I'm leaning towards no randori in TSRJ. Which further removes it from being a "combative" martial art, and moves it closer to what I like to call "renaissance fair Jujutsu".
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    There's a subtlety to it which is just lost on some people.

    Same goes for Boxing and Wrestling. I haven't seen too many pure BJJ matches but I'm assuming that the same is true there. One of my current Black Belts in Judo is a Brown in BJJ. Does some teaching. I'll discuss it with him tonight. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Where did you read that? Based on this thread, you'll forgive me for wanting a look at your source, since you have a tendency to misread/misquote them. A 5-second Google search says otherwise:

    Source: Stephen Delaney, Shihan-dai, Seirenkan Dōjō Sōsuishi-ryū (posted on another forum, don't know if I can post a link here).

    Source:
    Paul Masters, Menkyo Kaiden, TENJIN SHINYO RYU JUJUTSU, p. 17, available online.

    And this is nonsense, as you don't have a single clue about TSR. You are making stuff up, again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Okay, so then we’re back to the question I asked before: Is the “randori” like Judo, like Aikido, or like kata?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Besides there being absolutely no reason for randori to "be like kata", it is literally written in the post you were responding to.

    By the way, where did you read that TSR had no randori, again?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Which really doesn't help. That description could apply to what occurs in Judo and Aikido randori, yet those two martial arts do randori very differently.
     
  20. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Please don't move the goalposts.

    It helps a lot, as it refutes both your assertions:

    For the third time, what source did you read to base your statements on?123
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page