Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[jobo]

I would imagine it would be because they don't compete. It's rather difficult to be considered a sport if there's no competitive aspect.

so is that you taking a wild guess or some secret definition your not prepared to share, lots of thing that do have a competitive aspect are not classed as sport, poker and darts for two, so that cant be the defining aspect can it

its a commonly accepted definition thats required, otherwise just say its your opinion and not an actual fact and we can move on

 

[Hanzou]

And the fact that you don't understand it only proves that you don't know what you're talking about. That's the point. You are making pronouncements and blathering on about stuff that you have less than even a superficial understanding of.

The fact that you contradicted yourself in your own post in an asinine attempt to prove me wrong invalidates your entire statement here. However, let's try this again; there are no strikes in Judo randori. You doing them in an underhanded manner doesn't disprove that fact. Just like me jamming an elbow into my partner's throat while in side control doesn't disprove the fact that there is no striking in Bjj rolling either. The fact that you seemingly don't understand this is quite telling.

Here's a hint. You watching some youtube videos about "Japanese ju jutsu" doesn't make you an expert on the topic any more than watching porn makes a virgin an expert on sex.

Where did I ever say I was an "expert" on Japanese Jujutsu? Also please keep the discussion of sex to yourself.

This is where you start talking about your great exploits and conquests.

Uh What?

 

[lklawson]

let's try this again;

Don't bother. Your fact-free and understanding-free claims don't interest me.

 

[Hanzou]

so is that you taking a wild guess or some secret definition your not prepared to share, lots of thing that do have a competitive aspect are not classed as sport, poker and darts for two, so that cant be the defining aspect can it

Poker and darts are classed as sports dude.

its a commonly accepted definition thats required, otherwise just say its your opinion and not an actual fact and we can move on

You mean a commonly accepted definition like something that requires a competition between individuals or groups?

 

[jobo]

Poker and darts are classed as sports dude.



You mean a commonly accepted definition like something that requires a competition between an individual or group?

the nature of commonly accepted mean one you haven't just made

you know, an authoritative body, the Olympics association, a court of law that sort of thing

nb the Olympic association said darts was not a sport and the English courts said that poker was not

 

[Hanzou]

you know, a dictionary or the Olympics association, a court of law that sort of thing

You mean like this;

sport

1. 1.
   an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

from the online dictionary on google that you can easily access yourself which pretty much said what I stated about 10 posts ago?

 

[jobo]

You mean like this;

sport

1. 1.
   an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

from the online dictionary on google that you can easily access yourself which pretty much said what I stated about 10 posts ago?

thats 1.1 which leads me to suspect that there are other definitions that you have elected to suppress, perhaps a link

if we take that a face value then a game of soccer played in the freezing rain that no body finds entertaining would not be classed as a sport

 

[O'Malley]

@BrendanF this is the type of randori that would more than likely be found in that classical JJ;

And that is nothing like Judo randori, or Bjj rolling. In fact, it is a far less reliable training tool.

That's not randori. That is the randori no kata from Shodokan aikido, a kata that contains the techniques allowed in competition. And aikido is a gendai budo, not classical JJ.

The techniques are used consistently in competition.

Again, assuming that you're not deforming facts on purpose (BTW judo has the same exact thing, also called randori no kata), it's clear that you're talking about things that you don't understand.

 

[lklawson]

Again, assuming that you're not deforming facts on purpose (BTW judo has the same exact thing, also called randori no kata), it's clear that you're talking about things that you don't understand.

That's been pretty standard of him in this thread.

Pretty much the only reason I'm still monitoring this thread is because Tony and Chris are in it and they always have something useful to listen to.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

thats 1.1 which leads me to suspect that there are other definitions that you have elected to suppress, perhaps a link

if we take that a face value then a game of soccer played in the freezing rain that no body finds entertaining would not be classed as a sport

here the oxford english

You mean like this;

sport

1. 1.
   an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

from the online dictionary on google that you can easily access yourself which pretty much said what I stated about 10 posts ago?

here is the oxford english bdef
a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:
Football, basketball, and hockey are all team sports.
I enjoy winter sports like skiing and skating.
[ U ] UK
all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment:
She used to do/play a lot of sport when she was younger.

and before you say you dont care about english english

here is Websters defintion

noun
Definition of sport (Entry 2 of 3)

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
b: sexual play
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION


so as they are the most authoritative source on English and american English , those are the commonly accepted
definitions

you need to rebut those

 

[Hanzou]

That's not randori. That is the randori no kata from Shodokan aikido, a kata that contains the techniques allowed in competition. And aikido is a gendai budo, not classical JJ.

Again, assuming that you're not deforming facts on purpose (BTW judo has the same exact thing, also called randori no kata), it's clear that you're talking about things that you don't understand.

I said that's the type of randori that they would do, if they would do a randori at all. I'm well aware that Aikido isn't a Classical JJ. The point is that Brendan stated that Tenshin Shinyo Ryu had randori like Judo, and in absence of his evidence to support that claim, I posted that response.

 

[O'Malley]

Without any evidence to support your claim, and without any knowledge whatsoever of the system you're talking about.

What is your basis to say that the randori in TSR is similar to the Shodokan kata that you mentioned?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You think there are no strikes in Judo randori? hahahahahahahaha

There's plenty of close-lining and "accidents." There's a whole meta-art of slipping in strikes that the ref will accept as normal contact. Some of my favorites are elbows and shoulders while turning in for a hip toss. And that's just when atemi is technically illegal, never mind if you find an instructor who actually teaches atemi and atemi waza.

Son, you really need to stop. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

I figured out a long time ago that just because a given combat sport doesn't allow certain moves doesn't necessarily mean competitors in that sport don't know how to use those moves. What it may mean is that they know how to use those moves in such a way that the ref doesn't see it and penalize them.

 

[Hanzou]

Without any evidence to support your claim, and without any knowledge whatsoever of the system you're talking about.

What is your basis to say that the randori in TSR is similar to the Shodokan kata that you mentioned?

I think you should follow the line of discussion between myself and the other poster before you make such claims. Brendan stated that this CJJ had randori like Judo. I've been asking him to verify that for multiple posts, since based on what I've read, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu contains no randori at all. Finally, I posted that IF TSRJ had randori, it would more than likely resemble the video I posted.

I'm still waiting for Brendan to get back to me. Based on everything I've read and seen on the art, I'm leaning towards no randori in TSRJ. Which further removes it from being a "combative" martial art, and moves it closer to what I like to call "renaissance fair Jujutsu".

 

[lklawson]

I figured out a long time ago that just because a given combat sport doesn't allow certain moves doesn't necessarily mean competitors in that sport don't know how to use those moves. What it may mean is that they know how to use those moves in such a way that the ref doesn't see it and penalize them.

There's a subtlety to it which is just lost on some people.

Same goes for Boxing and Wrestling. I haven't seen too many pure BJJ matches but I'm assuming that the same is true there. One of my current Black Belts in Judo is a Brown in BJJ. Does some teaching. I'll discuss it with him tonight.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[O'Malley]

I think you should follow the line of discussion between myself and the other poster before you make such claims. Brendan stated that this CJJ had randori like Judo. I've been asking him to verify that for multiple posts, since based on what I've read, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu contains no randori at all.

Where did you read that? Based on this thread, you'll forgive me for wanting a look at your source, since you have a tendency to misread/misquote them. A 5-second Google search says otherwise:

A number of koryu ryuha still use forms of randori in their training, such as Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, Shi Ten-ryu Kumi-uchi, Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu jujutsu, Takenouchi-ryu (Takeuchi-ryu) jujutsu, Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu, Sosuishi-ryu jujutsu, Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu, Jikishinkage-ryu naginatajutsu, Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu, Owari Kan-ryu and possibly a number of lines of Shinkage-ryu heiho. [...]

The Shihanke of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Kubota Toshihiro sensei is not only the headmaster a jujutsu ryuha, but is also a 7th dan in Kodokan judo, teaching courses at the Kodokan building on a regular basis.

Source: Stephen Delaney, Shihan-dai, Seirenkan Dōjō Sōsuishi-ryū (posted on another forum, don't know if I can post a link here).

RANDORI HO These techniques are also referred to, as midare keiko an older term used in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu they are applied freely at will, instead of performing agreed upon kata. There are 18 listed techniques within the training curriculum. They include techniques such as Seoi nage, Koshi nage, Juji gatame, Ude garami, Hadaka jime ,Sode guruma and so on.These 18 waza can in Randori become a million waza.

Source:
Paul Masters, Menkyo Kaiden, TENJIN SHINYO RYU JUJUTSU, p. 17, available online.

Finally, I posted that IF TSRJ had randori, it would more than likely resemble the video I posted.

And this is nonsense, as you don't have a single clue about TSR. You are making stuff up, again.

 

[Hanzou]

Where did you read that? Based on this thread, you'll forgive me for wanting a look at your source, since you have a tendency to misread/misquote them. A 5-second Google search says otherwise:



Source: Stephen Delaney, Shihan-dai, Seirenkan Dōjō Sōsuishi-ryū (posted on another forum, don't know if I can post a link here).



Source:
Paul Masters, Menkyo Kaiden, TENJIN SHINYO RYU JUJUTSU, p. 17, available online.



And this is nonsense, as you don't have a single clue about TSR. You are making stuff up, again.

Okay, so then we’re back to the question I asked before: Is the “randori” like Judo, like Aikido, or like kata?

 

[O'Malley]

Okay, so then we’re back to the question I asked before: Is the “randori” like Judo, like Aikido, or like kata?

Besides there being absolutely no reason for randori to "be like kata", it is literally written in the post you were responding to.

RANDORI HO These techniques are also referred to, as midare keiko an older term used in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu they are applied freely at will, instead of performing agreed upon kata. There are 18 listed techniques within the training curriculum. They include techniques such as Seoi nage, Koshi nage, Juji gatame, Ude garami, Hadaka jime ,Sode guruma and so on.These 18 waza can in Randori become a million waza.

By the way, where did you read that TSR had no randori, again?

 

[Hanzou]

Besides there being absolutely no reason for randori to "be like kata", it is literally written in the post you were responding to.

Which really doesn't help. That description could apply to what occurs in Judo and Aikido randori, yet those two martial arts do randori very differently.

 

[O'Malley]

Please don't move the goalposts.

It helps a lot, as it refutes both your assertions:

Tenshin Shinyo Ryu contains no randori at all

F TSRJ had randori, it would more than likely resemble the video I posted.

For the third time, what source did you read to base your statements on?