Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    One of the biggest driving factors for BJJ being as good as it is, is that instructors can loose fights.

    This is kind of a monumental step forward in the evolution of martial arts.
     
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  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In a lot of cases, folks only post what they think looks cool or is particularly informative to present students. And most have been in their art too long to successfully think about what an outsider might be interested in seeing to evaluate before visiting.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I entirely agree with this. It takes a lot to build that culture where it's okay if the instructor isn't Superman. Which is odd, because nobody would be surprised if a gymnast could out-do their coach, after a point.
     
  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yes, but not a single student ever posting a randori video from any classical JJ system, in a family of systems that supposedly do randori quite often? I find that very odd. That led me to my initial conclusion that these arts are mainly kata based, and if there is randori, it's probably more along the lines of Aikido stylistically;

    [​IMG]


    Instead of Judo;

    [​IMG]
     
  5. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    They are mainly kata based. But they also do randori. And they also do Judo.. so why would they need to recreate the wheel there? They can just do Judo randori if they decide that's the only thing that matters.

    Just like the school I study also does Judo alongside. But I'll leave you to tell me all about it, your expertise has so enlivened this thread.
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Them adding Judo to the curriculum doesn't apply to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu's randori. I already know what Judo randori looks like, I want to see what Tenjin Shinyo Ryu's randori looks like.
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I have. Three times. How many times do you require?
    So you require 100% success? With how large a sample size? I keep asking, and you keep not answering.
     
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  8. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    Unfortunately they don't seem to think catering to your wants is a top priority.
     
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  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Perhaps not. But what about your school? Do you have any examples of your dojo's classical Jujutsu randori? Additionally, what is the name of your style of JJJ?
     
  10. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    No, I don't. I'm a beginner student of my school and certainly don't speak for it. My guess (as an outsider, who doesn't actually know) is that Tenjin Shinyo ryu randori would look exactly like Judo randori. But as I said I don't know. I only know that I've been told by people who do it that they do randori.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I will say 80% on demand. Consistently be able to pull knives off people.

    So Maby a hundred times. You can reliably get a knife off a guy.
     
  12. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    And do these have to be attackers, or will you accept full on sparring, say, with rubber knives or markers or those electric knives?
    And how do you arrive at those numbers? Are they based on anything, or are you just picking a number that's high enough nobody is likely to reach it, thus "supporting" your conclusion?
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Just picking a number that would be considered pretty normal for any other sort of guy.

    So if say I was a wrestler. I would probably want to have successfully wrestled a fair few more than three guys before I started to bang on about it.

    Look if you could pull a rubber knife off most people that would be pretty convincing.

    I mean a black belt BJJer can submit most people on demand.

    I have been to the strippers three times in my life. But I wouldn't class myself as a stripper guy
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Here is an example. Lachlan guiles is a leglock guy. So i would expect to see him submitting people with leg locks.

     
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  15. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    Hi

    Coming to this thread late as someone who perhaps spans both the Japanese and Brazilian styles...

    I tend to agree that the word jiu jitsu is becoming a short hand for BJJ
    Even in Japan the word jujutsu doesn't really equate to a particular style. Technically it's a subsystem found within many smaller, localised old styles. As people have pointed out these old styles (koryu) tend to be focused on preserving the cultural traditions and are not particularly popular especially with the younger generations. Worth noting that a fair amount of (broken) judoka do migrate over to koryu to keep training as they get older
    Unfortunately in the west the majority of Japanese Jujutsu schools are a hash of judo, karate and aikido which, in my view, is a shame as they miss the critical point of how the elements were originally integrated. The quality of these styles is generally pretty poor and realistically they will never compete with BJJ for the Jiu Jitsu moniker

    I agree with @Tony Dismukes that BJJ risks evolving in a direction that makes it less and less applicable for self defence over time. Many academies incorporate other classes (striking, MMA etc) to provide a more holistic service for members, but many don't &/or people at these academies can just attend the BJJ sport classes
    Many BJJ academies do teach the old self defence curriculum as part of the core BJJ classes. This is basically the same as the judo one (maybe a smaller number of techniques?). However, I never felt that this went far enough and, in my view, there are quite a few gaps in the execution of many of these techniques

    On the other hand there are a lot of valid self defence techniques and principles to be found in the old Japanese styles. I feel that these compliment BJJ excellently, largely due to their shared history and philosophy and because they focus on the stand up self defence which is clearly not a focus for BJJ
    The issue is sifting through the 1,000s of techniques to find the ones that are applicable to a modern context and then to test and refine them under pressure. Not many people are doing this, but I do feel it would be a very valuable exercise

    Hope this makes sense

    D
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
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  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    OK. So I've done it three times with real knives. 100% success. OK, I did lose an eye once, but I survived. I count that as a win. I don't know how many times in practice, and I sure don't have a record of what percentage succeeded, but certainly I succeed more often than not.

    I'm not as stringent as you. I'd give you credit for being a stripper guy.
     
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  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    your giving a specific hard number 80% for want you want as evidence, but then talking in generalities for your example
    i could submit MOST people on demand, if most is defined as 51 %
     
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    And what is the name of your Jujutsu school?

    I disagree that it would look exactly like Judo randori. As shown in the gif I posted, Judo is a completely different tone to what we see in TSRJ's demonstrations. Further, Judo's randori is only that way because strikes are removed. In any case, I agree with you that like most JJJ's it is dominated by kata practice, which highly limits its capabilities as a fighting art. A fine art to pretend to be a samurai warrior on the weekends, certainly. As an art that would stop a sociopath from turning your face into hamburger meat? Not so much.

    Which in turn is why the term "Jujitsu", "Jujutsu", "Jiujitsu", etc. is slowly but surely becoming associated with Bjj.
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Stuff like that is why I'm not all too worried about Bjj losing it's effectiveness via sport. That was some very impressive guard retention considering how he was being pressured, and I've never seen anyone utilize the turtle in that way to neutralize a potential back take.
     
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  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Kinda disagree. Does anyone think that Cus D'mato could beat Tyson when he was coaching him?

    Does ANY combat sports competitor, past children, think that their coach could beat them up? No, of course not. It's silly. What you and 'bear are doing, without even realizing it, is falling into the asian martial mythos that western culture has built up since the '60s. Sure you're rejecting it, but you assume that it was commonly believed in the first place.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk123
     

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