Why is this done?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.

    I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.
     
  2. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    In some cases, I think they feel threatened.

    It’s such an easy fix, though, if you have a viable dojo. Just bring in a jits guy to teach everyone basics. Ten years down the line you’ll be glad you did.
     
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  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Quick question Buka; the sequence that begins at around the 6 minute mark.... Have you ever seen anything like that before? I would imagine escaping from the back mount (by somehow flinging him off my back) and having my opponent's back exposed to me would be a dream come true. Yet somehow, this guy is able to grapple against someone behind him.
     
  4. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.

    As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.
     
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  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Thank you! Good to see you again too. :)

    And I agree with your earlier post; I think it's fear as well.

    LoL! Yeah, that entire sequence was really...... interesting to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  6. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe it’s a good thing that they’re at least trying. And maybe years down the road it will develop nicely. And maybe not.

    When I think of some of the things I taught in the nineteen seventies I want to hide in shame. But, hey, my instructor taught me those techniques, there’s no way they couldn’t be anything other than the balls.
     
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  7. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I love this. They will learn what's lost in their kata at approximately the same rate a BJJ school teaches new students.
     
  8. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    Sometimes, not necessarily in this case, people do not understand the potential depth that exists in their own TMA, so look elsewhere for the "cool stuff," or things that incorporate what they perceive as lacking in their syle. I found American kenpo cool, having techniques not found in my first style. But after getting deeper into my first traditional style, more advanced, and getting a strong understanding of what my katas really contained, I found a lot of those "missing" concepts and techniques! Who knew?
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It would work if both people couldn't grapple.

    Which in that case you have a whole room full of people who can't.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I would assume that's where it came from, though I suppose it's possible someone somewhere else in the organization brought the stuff in and handed them that backstory. I prefer to just tell people I brought some ground work from Judo (didn't like what NGA had) and supplemented with some BJJ cross-training....and that if they want more serious ground training, they should train at a BJJ school.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's good...if they let folks have a chance to fail and improve on the technique. It doesn't take much to get the basics down if folks have someplace to start and actually try stuff against each other.
     
  12. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    It happens in karate too. People reverse engineer ground escape bunkai for Naihanchi kata. I just say "Ok, then" and move on. I have my doubts that the people that came up with Naihanchi practiced ne-waza in the same sense that a BJJ or judo player do, but it's not that important to me. If they want to teach ground escapes within the kata paradigm, that's fine with me. I just hope it is good.
     
  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When someone says that certain technique exists in his system, you should ask him the following questions:

    How to

    - develop it?
    - enhance it?
    - polish it?
    - test it?
    - counter it?
    - set it up?
    - use it to set up other techniques?

    When a technique truly exists in your system, you should have no problem to answer those questions.
     
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  14. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I remember being in the beginners class back in the day. I remember staying every single night to watch the advanced class. I remember the feeling of “ I can’t wait!”

    When I started teaching on a full time basis, I always tried to show a little of what was coming to the beginners, hoping they would have the same feeling I did. Kind of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs. Or maybe trying to get them hooked like I had been hooked.

    Probably didn't work with many. Hopefully a few, though.
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I often look at this kind of stuff and think, "Why does it have to be in there? If you didn't know it was there, then why not just teach what you've just learned?" I mean, I'm okay if they want to point to those movements in the kata and show how that reinforces the movement principles involved. But does it really matter whether that specific movement in kata "incluces" that technique? It seems contrived, and with too much focus on the form.
     
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  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It only takes a few.
     
  17. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Yeah, I agree, it's hokey. With that said, the people I have seen doing this are very clear that they are reverse-engineering. They don't claim it was passed down to them from an unbroken lineage dating back 150 years, yada-yada.
     
  18. Bee Brian

    Bee Brian Blue Belt

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    I haven't watched the video yet but I read your post.

    It's a business. They sometimes have to false-advertise. That's just how businesses are.

    Me, for example, I am doing my own weightlifting program that I invented "borrowing" ideas from Bulgarian weightlifters. Although I will, in fact, mention my source of inspiration (Bulgarian weightlifters), it won't stop me from naming my own program with a name that I see fit that would make me look good. The ends justify the means.
     
  19. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Bulgarian weightlifters....

    In 78 me and a few other fools spent a few months in Hawaii. We were working on Waikiki as pedicab drivers - peddle a bike attached to a cool carriage and drive tourists around for a tour or to bar hop - and charge outrageous fees - they knew the price beforehand, they didn't care.

    One time Wide World of Sports was having a televised world strongest man thing going one. My buddy was driving two Bulgarian weightlifters from bar to bar. They barely fit in the carriage. When they got off at one bar, one of them grabbed the handlebars of the bike and just bent them into a pretzel. Tipped my buddy big, though.

    Every time I hear the term Bulgarian weightlifter - my mind goes to that pretzel.
     
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  20. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    I would say because ground techniques are not exclusive to BJJ nor MMA. There are several places they can come from.

    I remember at 15 yrs old in 84 or 85, we were doing grappling techniques in the Karate school, long before BJJ was even widely known and you will see ground training in Doshinkan as well to this day. It is also one of the things we still cover.

    I will say though, we don't train ourselves to get knotted up...it is primarily escape and strike your why out and get back up.123
     
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