Why is this done?

[Hanzou]

Makes a straight face.

Bro, what's wrong with that video? It's a true grand master who's... Pfffffftt... BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;

And yes, I love Rika Usami.

 

[Bee Brian]

If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;

And yes, I love Rika Usami.

Bro, funny coincidence but I've seen that video before twice. It got recommended to me by YouTube.

Even an ignorant layman like me can clearly see she's not an ordinary karateka.

I also like the Wu Dan Kung Fu people. Rika is like stone, the Wu Dan folks are like water.

Shaolin monks are more like athletes to me than whatever you call Rika and others. They're a different breed.

 

[Bee Brian]

Wudang, apparently. Misspelt.

 

[Hanzou]

Bro, funny coincidence but I've seen that video before twice. It got recommended to me by YouTube.

Even an ignorant layman like me can clearly see she's not an ordinary karateka.

I also like the Wu Dan Kung Fu people. Rika is like stone, the Wu Dan folks are like water.

Shaolin monks are more like athletes to me than whatever you call Rika and others. They're a different breed.

True, Rika is exceptional, but again if you’re a grandmaster in karate, your kata should be comparable.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

It might come from there kata, but have been realised doing BJJ. conclsuions that are the same just without any direct infleunce on each other are pretty common for limited things like fighting. That and i think they may have been influced by Jujutsu and japanese martial arts as well. So its either mutually exclusive, or a little bit of influence. Or a little bit of both. (karate has sort of been slightly screwed when it got imported to japan)


There was a video on happy life martial arts where he said he was doing BJJ and went "hang on this looks like X kata". So im all for backing it exists in kata, but down to its deletion in practise or them forgetting, they only realise how to do it by doing another martial art.


Edit: that or they are frauds and made the whole thing up.

 

[Hanzou]

It might come from there kata, but have been realised doing BJJ. conclsuions that are the same just without any direct infleunce on each other are pretty common for limited things like fighting. That and i think they may have been influced by Jujutsu and japanese martial arts as well. So its either mutually exclusive, or a little bit of influence. Or a little bit of both. (karate has sort of been slightly screwed when it got imported to japan)


There was a video on happy life martial arts where he said he was doing BJJ and went "hang on this looks like X kata". So im all for backing it exists in kata, but down to its deletion in practise or them forgetting, they only realise how to do it by doing another martial art.


Edit: that or they are frauds and made the whole thing up.

I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.

It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.

 

[Graywalker]

Not a lot of systems beating BJJ on the ground under any conditions anywhere. And those systems that do tend to have pretty competent BJJ. So your catch or sub wrestlers will be playing BJJ with BJJ guys.

And of course now the cornerstone of modern military hand to hand in America under the different systems.

And a system that conceptually travels from system to system. So that a soldiers doing modern army combatives could go to a MMA school with his BJJ skills and continue to develop rather than having to restart under some sort of different method.

So cornerstone would be a very accurate description.

So You can literally take a buy guy and a wrestling MMA guy and they can roll without having to fart around defining concepts.

Or you can give those concepts to police or military and they can transport them directly over to real world situations.

Or even take guys with no real experience, virtually drag them off the street and use these concepts to dominate them.

And you can transport that to navy seals who can then go back on the mat and murder normal people.

And so. When you can see the same results. And when you can show the same concepts creating the same conclusion. You can pretty confidently assume that the conclusions will be consistent regardless of the person or the situation. 2+2=4 Because maths works.

All sport, you can say the set about American wrestling, which usually dominates BJJ. This has been shown countless times...why not just train that...oh wait, that's a Jr. and High school activity, people have for decades, long before BJJ was the flavor of the month.

But really, I am not overly interested in sport, arts, they are limited and incomplete.

 

[skribs]

I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.

I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.

This is one of the issues I have with the concept of Bunkai. Granted, I haven't trained Karate, so I don't have first-hand experience. But I've trained Taekwondo, which uses similar forms, and I've tried to find these answers for myself. In my experience, trying to connect things to the kata becomes more of an exercise in how far can you stretch the kata to meet whatever technique you're talking about, or else it becomes confirmation bias that some like motions teach each other.

Let's look at my second assertation first, and I'll come back to the first one in a minute. From what I can tell, there's a disconnect between how Bunkai is supposed to work, and how it actually works. There's this theory that you learn something in a form, and it teaches you all of these other things. However, people rarely come to learn those other things on their own through training the form. More often, it goes like this:

1. You learn the form
2. You learn a technique that has some similar movements and/or positions as a technique from the form
3. Your brain sees a pattern and connects it to the form

Let's look at math as an example. Most math (if not all) can be traced back to addition in some way, shape, or form.

• Addition is addition
• Subtraction is addition of a negative number
• Multiplication is fast repetitions of addition
• Division is multiplication of a fraction or decimel, therefore fast repetitions of the addition of fractions or decimels
• Exponents are fast repetitions of multiplication, and there fore are fast repetitions of fast repetitions of addition

It goes on, but you see the point. Pretty much every concept can be traced to addition. Does that mean that addition teaches everything else? Does that mean that addition contains everything you need to learn? No. You need to know negative numbers to apply subtraction in this way. You need to know fractions and/or decimals to apply division in this way. We actually do learn multiplication this way, but we need to learn multiplication before we can move on to exponents.

To me, the "aha" moment when you learn about negative numbers, and then realize that addition is the subtraction of negative numbers, is similar to bunkai. You learned subtraction a long time ago using a different process. Now it makes sense in a different way. The same is true of forms. You learn a punch in a form, and later learn it's actually a throw (if you take great liberties with how it's used in the form). But would you have ever learned the throw if it wasn't specifically taught to you? Is knowing the form a prerequisite to learning the throw? Does the form make the throw easier to learn? I'd say the answer to the first two questions is "no", and the third is "maybe." The form does give you some muscle memory in some similar movements. But does it teach the throw?

Now let's circle back to the first issue. The mental gymnastics that sometimes happen. With enough leaps of logic, I can probably make any technique in a form fit any other technique in martial arts. For example:

• A front kick to the head is teaching the rear-naked choke, because if you attack someone from behind, you want to front kick to the knee to buckle it and make their upper body easier for you to control.
• A knife-hand block is teach you how to do an armbar, because after you block, you can grab their hand, apply a hip toss, and then follow them down and transition into an armbar

This is actually not far from some of the "application" videos I've seen. You take a technique from the form and add a whole lot to it in order to make it practical. In that sense, the forms kind of become like a poetry exercise where you have the first letter of every line, and you have to write the poem based on that. And then you start to get creative with the spelling, because you want to talk about writing and the first letter is an R.

 

[Graywalker]

Would this be an example of Doshinkan Kata?

Also is it true that there is no sparring allowed?

No thanks.

This is funny, it shows your lack of knowledge concerning the arts. Yeah I seen this video before amd I know who that gentleman is. So did a lot of the founders of most Karate systems..and many respected his ability. His brother, they guy that created Doshinkan, was a very respected fighter.

But, it's not my system...I just know they have ground game.

 

[Hanzou]

All sport, you can say the set about American wrestling, which usually dominates BJJ. This has been shown countless times...why not just train that...oh wait, that's a Jr. and High school activity, people have for decades, long before BJJ was the flavor of the month.

But really, I am not overly interested in sport, arts, they are limited and incomplete.

I’d very much like to see where wrestling “dominated” Bjj countless times.

You clearly didn’t read anything DB posted. At this point in the evolution of submission grappling, Bjj and wrestling are intertwined. Not because one dominated the other, but because HS and college wrestlers had nowhere to go after their scholastic careers were over and pretty much flooded Bjj gyms in order to find opportunities in coaching, instruction, and as a pathway into MMA. Bjj gyms in turn were receptive to what wrestling had to offer and actually worked wrestling concepts into the system. No-gi Bjj pretty much came from wrestlers entering the sport and adding their input.

I don’t see what something being a “sport” has to do with anything. Are you trying to say that a Martial sport is less effective than a martial art? I thought we settled this nonsense 30 years ago.

 

[Graywalker]

But it's an old argument, usually dominates by people who have never even stepped foot in a non sport school. One I don't really care to argue.

Still boggles my mind that people believe that ground fighting began with a guy who had incomplete training in a TMA.

 

[Hanzou]

This is funny, it shows your lack of knowledge concerning the arts.

Oh the irony....

Yeah I seen this video before amd I know who that gentleman is. So did a lot of the founders of most Karate systems..and many respected his ability. His brother, they guy that created Doshinkan, was a very respected fighter.

Oh was he? Where can we see some examples of his fights?

But, it's not my system...I just know they have ground game.

You said Doshinkan, and that is Doshinkan. Once again, feel free to provide a counter example showcasing your particular system, especially the ground fighting aspect.

And btw, Judo is not a TMA.

 

[Graywalker]

I’d very much like to see where wrestling “dominated” Bjj countless times.

You clearly didn’t read anything DB posted. At this point in the evolution of submission grappling, Bjj and wrestling are intertwined. Not because one dominated the other, but because HS and college wrestlers had nowhere to go after their scholastic careers were over and pretty much flooded Bjj gyms in order to find opportunities in coaching, instruction, and as a pathway into MMA. Bjj gyms in turn were receptive to what wrestling had to offer and actually worked wrestling concepts into the system. No-gi Bjj pretty much came from wrestlers entering the sport and adding their input.

I don’t see what something being a “sport” has to do with anything. Are you trying to say that a Martial sport is less effective than a martial art? I thought we settled this nonsense 30 years ago.

So because of wrestling, BJJ became better, so really BJJ is just a sales pitch for American wrestling...got it.

 

[Hanzou]

So because of wrestling, BJJ became better, so really BJJ is just a sales pitch for American wrestling...got it.

Your opening assertion doesn’t work with your conclusion. Bjj has always been a sponge for other grappling forms, hence is why it has remained so dominant for so many years. Also given Bjjs proximity to MMA and it’s Vale Tudo roots, wrestling supplanting the tachiwaza of Judo within Bjj was a forgone conclusion. Again, if you actually read DBs post, you would better understand this. It’s why we still call it Bjj and not Brazilian Wrestling. As I’ve said many times; MMA keeps Bjj honest And effective, and doesn’t allow it to veer off into TMA territory (Despite the best efforts of certain people within the Bjj community).

Still no examples of your version of Doshinkan karate? How disappointing.

 

[Graywalker]

Look, I watched the early fights of UFC 1or 2 live, it didn't take long to show that BJJ wasn't a dominating art, once other ground arts entered the ring. That's just the facts. You can not say that it's a cornerstone to ground fighting that's just bs

 

[Hanzou]

Look, I watched the early fights of UFC 1or 2 live, it didn't take long to show that BJJ wasn't a dominating art, once other ground arts entered the ring. That's just the facts. You can not say that it's a cornerstone to ground fighting that's just bs

You mean the UFC1 and 2 where a Bjj exponent one both handily?

I think we've reached the point where you're clearly trolling.

 

[Bee Brian]

I'll give you all a new Traditional Martial Art. I call it Chad Pugilism, named after my Final Fantasy 14 character, Chad Thundermember.

The secret behind the effectiveness of my traditional art is that we build muscles as well as having non-traditional boxing techniques.

For only fifty dollars, I'll send you a DVD of me demonstrating how to do a tricep extension!

 

[Hanzou]

This is one of the issues I have with the concept of Bunkai. Granted, I haven't trained Karate, so I don't have first-hand experience. But I've trained Taekwondo, which uses similar forms, and I've tried to find these answers for myself. In my experience, trying to connect things to the kata becomes more of an exercise in how far can you stretch the kata to meet whatever technique you're talking about, or else it becomes confirmation bias that some like motions teach each other.

Let's look at my second assertation first, and I'll come back to the first one in a minute. From what I can tell, there's a disconnect between how Bunkai is supposed to work, and how it actually works. There's this theory that you learn something in a form, and it teaches you all of these other things. However, people rarely come to learn those other things on their own through training the form. More often, it goes like this:

1. You learn the form
2. You learn a technique that has some similar movements and/or positions as a technique from the form
3. Your brain sees a pattern and connects it to the form

Let's look at math as an example. Most math (if not all) can be traced back to addition in some way, shape, or form.

• Addition is addition
• Subtraction is addition of a negative number
• Multiplication is fast repetitions of addition
• Division is multiplication of a fraction or decimel, therefore fast repetitions of the addition of fractions or decimels
• Exponents are fast repetitions of multiplication, and there fore are fast repetitions of fast repetitions of addition

It goes on, but you see the point. Pretty much every concept can be traced to addition. Does that mean that addition teaches everything else? Does that mean that addition contains everything you need to learn? No. You need to know negative numbers to apply subtraction in this way. You need to know fractions and/or decimals to apply division in this way. We actually do learn multiplication this way, but we need to learn multiplication before we can move on to exponents.

To me, the "aha" moment when you learn about negative numbers, and then realize that addition is the subtraction of negative numbers, is similar to bunkai. You learned subtraction a long time ago using a different process. Now it makes sense in a different way. The same is true of forms. You learn a punch in a form, and later learn it's actually a throw (if you take great liberties with how it's used in the form). But would you have ever learned the throw if it wasn't specifically taught to you? Is knowing the form a prerequisite to learning the throw? Does the form make the throw easier to learn? I'd say the answer to the first two questions is "no", and the third is "maybe." The form does give you some muscle memory in some similar movements. But does it teach the throw?

Now let's circle back to the first issue. The mental gymnastics that sometimes happen. With enough leaps of logic, I can probably make any technique in a form fit any other technique in martial arts. For example:

• A front kick to the head is teaching the rear-naked choke, because if you attack someone from behind, you want to front kick to the knee to buckle it and make their upper body easier for you to control.
• A knife-hand block is teach you how to do an armbar, because after you block, you can grab their hand, apply a hip toss, and then follow them down and transition into an armbar

This is actually not far from some of the "application" videos I've seen. You take a technique from the form and add a whole lot to it in order to make it practical. In that sense, the forms kind of become like a poetry exercise where you have the first letter of every line, and you have to write the poem based on that. And then you start to get creative with the spelling, because you want to talk about writing and the first letter is an R.

As a former karate exponent (Shotokan), I've come to the conclusion that Bunkai is bunk in general. In my view kata as its generally taught in karate/Kung fu/whatever schools are filler in order to prop up the ranking system of many martial arts. I would actually argue that non-kata based MAs show better overall outcomes than kata-based MAs.

That said, I do think kata have value, mainly in the form of fitness or a type of moving meditation. However, students shouldn't be led to believe that their kata holds some sort of secret knowledge waiting to be unlocked, or that consistent kata practice will make them better fighters overall. You only become better at fighting by actually fighting.

Circling back to the point; Kata can be used to peddle nonsense like having hidden Bjj techniques inside traditional martial arts. This misinformation leads to people like Greywalker actually believing his mysterious karate style contained legitimate ground fighting techniques.

 

[Graywalker]

You mean the UFC1 and 2 where a Bjj exponent one both handily?

I think we've reached the point where you're clearly trolling.

Obviously your grasping, I said watched 1 or 2 live, not UFC 1&2...but the facts show that once other styles of ground fighting entered the UFC, BJJ was no where near dominating.

 

[Hanzou]

Obviously your grasping, I said watched 1 or 2 live, not UFC 1&2...but the facts show that once other styles of ground fighting entered the UFC, BJJ was no where near dominating.

I suppose you missed the fact that after the early UFCs, nearly every fighter who stepped into the octagon was trained in Bjj. Not much has changed in almost 30 years.

Think long and hard about why that is the case.